Retrospect
Retrospect
The Crisis Of Faith | Retrospect Ep.160
In this week’s episode we discussed decline in religious practices in America, and what some of the causes may be. There were a lot of great statistics in this episode that helped us ask more detailed questions. What has been the cause? Is politics dividing people over this matter?
Our Links:
Retrospect
Keywords
presidential election, Kamala Harris, Donald Trump, Christianity decline, religious disaffiliation, church attendance, hypocrisy in church, social media impact, community decline, purity culture, shame in church, political influence, religious identity, intergenerational transmission, mental health, radical beliefs
Speakers
Jason (54%), Ian (31%), Stoney (15%)
Ian
Welcome to the retrospect podcast, a show where people come together from different walks of life and discuss a topic from their generations perspective. My name is Ian, and as always, I'm joined by Stoney,
Stoney
Hello
Ian
and Jason,
Jason
hello everyone.
Ian
How are you guys? It's
Jason
been a good week. Yeah,
Stoney
interesting week, for
Jason
sure. Yeah, I know it's right now. It seemed like the every time you turn on the news, or just the presidential election, seems to be, oh yeah, just dominating every thing on the on the airwaves now, so which is to be expected. I
Stoney
was watching the LSU game the other night, and the first half was okay, but the second half, it seemed like every other commercial was something to do with the campaign, right? Yeah, and I got sick, I would just, well, it's the sound every, every time they went to commercial,
Jason
politics has become religion, and that really segues into our Well,
Stoney
I want to see, Did y'all hear what in the Kamala Harris speech she had the other night? Did you hear what happened she gets to her pro choice area of her speech, and a gentleman in the background yelled out, Jesus is Lord. And she said, Excuse me, but you're at the wrong rally.
Jason
Well, I mean, okay, that should be
Stoney
career ending, campaign ending. There shouldn't be a Christian on this planet, or especially in America, that would vote for that woman right now.
Jason
Well, but see then that goes back to we're in a different world now, and there's a significant portion of people who have disaffiliated themselves with religion and whatever that might mean. And it's very interesting that some of the latest polls that have come out, I mean, this kind of brings bring me, brings me to a point that I remember, it was a big headline, it was probably about, I don't know, a year ago, and Gallup had come out and said, for the first time ever, Christianity was no longer the majority in the United States.
Stoney
It's there yet for even what I was looking for, getting ready for,
Jason
yeah, it just, it just kind of got me going. It's like, you know, what is going on in our culture that so many people have dropped out of religion, and you know, we've all talked about various issues of what's going on in the United States and even in the world. We're not alone in this. Why? Or increasingly, younger people you know considering themselves the nuns, whereas in the past, that wasn't the case. And so I thought it would be a very interesting topic to kind of talk about, is kind of what's going on, and I think some of this kind of ties in a little bit into what we talked about last week absolutely does, and and the changing demographics, changing, you know, the age groups of people that are coming of age and of exercising their political will and and stuff like that. So I think we're going to have a really good discussion on this. I mean, I know guys, you probably there was a there's a lot of information on this
topic. I know when I was doing my research, it's, there's a lot,
Stoney
well, I actually tried to tie that into last week's episode and my favorite saying of you know, hard times create strong men, etc, etc, and it's the hard, hard times create strong men. Statement reflects how society cycles from phases of hardship and ease, and today's generations may be living in the weak men phase, and so weak men don't really look to religion. They don't look to those things because they're God like they believe in themselves. They they've created their own idol in themselves and money and other things a. Than God and religion and faith.
Jason
Well, I'm looking at this website here called church track. He said the state of church attendance trends and statistics in 2024 is what percentage, what percent of church members attend church regularly, and it is just some some key statistics here say 20% of Americans attend church every week. 41% of Americans or monthly church attendance or more, and those are based both on Gallup polls, and then 57% of Americans seldom or never in a religious service. Attendance, regular church attendance has steadily declined since the turn of the century. So what might be driving that? Why are people abandoning religion?
Ian
I know for myself, people in my age bracket, and I think even some younger people. I have a theory that I've heard other people kind of back up. The same thing is that people are what drive people out of church is that I have met more and more people in my journey through life, that I think in some way, believe there's a higher power, believe in God, or, like, the teachings of Jesus and all those sort of things. But the more and more you just kind of like, not not dig or pry, but like you just start to have a conversation, the more the realization of like, it's church people that have gotten people out of church, and the kind of the the hypothetical, or I guess the the I the idea that I have is that I think people can get behind the teachings of Jesus, but whenever they start to see that the the people that are preaching those things don't live that way, there's a disconnect, and I think that people, I think the younger people as well, I think are aware of that. I think can see that, and I think are intelligent enough to know that that's hypocritical. And then, and I'm not, I'm not blanketing any certain denomination, I'm not saying anything like that, but I just, I think more and more people start to realize that people are just people, and that they're not practicing what they preach a lot of times, which is unfortunate. And then that's what I think, I think drives people away from the church, is when they feel like that. You know, you hold yourself to a certain standard, but you don't. And I would
Jason
agree that I do believe that people really place a lot of weight on what they perceive as hypocrisy and but, you know, I've thought about this in I'm sitting there going, well, when has ever church been about being that people are perfect
Ian
in certain denominations? It is
Jason
well, and unfortunately, that's it's that's not how Christianity evolved from the very beginning. I believe that's more of a more of a modern view of Christianity. And I would venture to say it goes back it. If I remember reading something about this, if you remember, it kind of goes back to the time where communities basically would leave and say, well, we don't want to be affiliated with them, because they're heathens, or whatever the case may be, and they form their own little communities. Unfortunately, by doing that, that sets in motion certain things, right? And oftentimes, those groups eventually die out over time, because you only have a certain percentage of people that really subscribe very faithfully so to speak to certain things. And I just think it kind of expires over time. But I think churches, of course, or made of people who are fallen, they're sinful. That's, we can still use that term nowadays, but you know, it is always going back to what I've always said. I mean, it goes back the old, the old Catholic term that is still used, is, is concupiscence, it's, it's, it's, why is it so easy to be bad and so hard to be good? Because Nate naturally, we are selfish people.
Stoney
I mean, see that, and that's where I was, if you look maybe back in the seven. 60s and 70s, with some of the the television and things that were coming out, and we started becoming a little bit more selfish and what we were doing, but really from the advent of the Internet, and like Ian said, 2005 2008 with the smartphones and the cell phones and things like that, What? What? What's there social media. And to me, social media has taught us to compare instead of being grateful. And so we go into church pointing fingers, and look at that person, look at this person, but look how good I am. I don't need to be here with those people. And so you build your own wall into the church, forgetting the fact that you're going to the church, not just for yourself, but maybe, you know, you got your hand out wanting this blessing or wanting this but maybe you're supposed to be that blessing for somebody else who's in need of it. And instead of pointing fingers, why don't you help somebody?
Ian
And I think that all these, I think are these, are all, I think, specific context for probably specific people. So I'm not saying one's wrong or one's not exactly, but I, I feel that I, I came from a time in the late 90s, early 2000s of, like, big purity culture where, like, that was a that was a big movement, like having a purity ring and, like being, like holy in that kind of sense. And there was
Stoney
another marriage was that came out of that too, in in Louisiana, what was it Sure? The Con, no, the there was some if you got married this away, it was a little bit harder to get a divorce or something. Oh, yeah, yeah. Like a covenant, covenant marriage. That's it. That kind of came out of that little era there too, didn't it exactly?
Ian
And it's there was, like, a lot of rules and a lot of things that I think were imposed upon young people,
Stoney
and I think that you had to have counseling too. Yeah,
Ian
and it was, there was a lot of stuff that was involved in it. And more than anything else, it was, there was a lot of shame involved. And that was the thing that's, that's what I'm talking about whenever I'm saying, like, the comparison there is, at least in our context, there's a lot of people in my age bracket that I feel like Have Been Shamed out of church. You know what I'm saying? There was a lot of religious people that were like, you have to live your life this way. You cannot drink alcohol, you cannot say a curse word, you cannot have sex before marriage. And if you do that as like ultimate sin, and like you to live your life in a certain way, to be perfect to a certain amount, and then the second that you're not it. That's where, like, the shame comes in, of like, I'm unworthy, which all of us are, and that's the whole point. That's that's where grace comes in. We won't get there. But like, that's what I'm talking about. It's like, there is, I think a majority, there is a high percentage of young people that I think lived through that, that I'm I, I have personally experienced in my life, of like, looking at a pastor, knowing that he lives like a heathen, but he'll condemn me to hell for, you know, not being perfect. And that's the kind of thing, of like, that's where I'm talking about, like, I have people that I can find it in, mentors, religious leaders, that have said some very awful things to me about my spiritual journey. When I'm like, You are a very horrible human being, respectfully and like, that's the that's the hard part. Is like, I know that people in my age bracket have left the church because of that, where they're like, if that's if you want to read this book and say all these wonderful things about Jesus and then not live and then not do anything, and like, just be the epitome of hypocritical then.
Jason
I mean, what's the point we could all point to? Of course, religious leaders failing to live the life that they preach, right? That's been going on a long time. I mean, I don't know how you stop that, because, I mean, the church has always had sinful people. It will always have sinful people. I think, I think there's a I think there's something deeper, though, going on than just kind of the typical enough, believe me, I've heard it, yeah, he's hypocritical. I don't want to follow. I don't want I mean, how did but what does that got to do with
Stoney
you? You kind of have to look at the dates and the numbers for that, because there's a very specific time where it just starts falling completely off. Protestant, Catholic weekly attendance dropped off from about 50% 1990 to 36% in 2010 the early 2000s and 10s and then it really started to drop off weekly attendance fell from that 36% in 2014 to 26% in 2020 monthly. Attendance declined, with 33% of adults attending monthly in 2019 to 30% in 2022 and now the percentage of Americans who report never attending church services grew from 11% in 1990 to 27% in the late 2000 and 10s. So if you're looking at about the same time when, when Ian talks about this, this 2008 when he realizes something changed, this number is taking a huge dive at that same time. And we even talked about that in the last episode, that that might be the the beginning of the fourth turn. Well, I feel like the crisis error. It also,
Ian
I think it involves community. I think in that same time period where we have cell phones, where we have social media, we're establishing this new, what is known in the world as the third place, like, they're like, there's this like, digital third place that people won't reside at, and I think that community has been on the downturn from that time. But I think that's to kind of answer your question, yes, there always has been religious leaders, but I think more so is the like is the addition of loving someone through that and also establishing a community for people, I think, is the part that I think is missing. There is a lot of shame, there's a lot of finger pointing, there's a lot of judgment, there's a lot of all this stuff. But there's no like loving and like community to help bring you through some of that, to like, yes, you can be taught. You can be told these are wrong. And again, even though, as a pastor, like as a I'm not saying I am. But like, a pastor could stand up there and say, like, Hey, this is how you live your life. I fall short all the time, but I'm still, like, looking at your your community of people, and saying, but I'm gonna love you through all that, and we're gonna, like, we're gonna work on being better people together, in a community together. But like, there's that lack of that, that I've experienced where it's like, it just comes as a I'm holier than thou, and listen to what I have to say, the kind of thing that's what I'm saying, that, like, at least, from, again, from the people I've talked to, from some of my friends, that that's not been something that is, you know, I
Jason
find it. I found this article here, which was, I thought was pretty good. It's, it's called, America's becoming less religious, is politics to blame? No, and it was about a five minute read. They really bring up some, some good points. I thought that really, I think, really strike at the heart of really why people are not going to church anymore, and the place of religion in their lives, which is something that's a kind of a different thing. Where does religion fit on the priority of when you wake up in the morning, till you go to bed at night? And this is something I found was, I thought was pretty good. And this is, you would look at this and go, Well, this is a good thing, because the opposite you don't necessarily want, but yet it produce such economic prosperity and functional governance, both wonderful things can weaken or felt need for religious resources. For example, much of religious institutions historically provided American citizens, education, counseling, support for the needy, marriage, options, entertainment and explanations for how the world works are increasingly provided by the state and the market now, church participation has become more optional, just one more activity middle class families do in the suburbs or not, and I have perfect examples of that with Sports. Kids in sports. How many prioritize the kid going we need to bring them to the softball practice or soccer or football, and we'll get to church. When we get to it, it's see, it's a mindset is, where does religion fall in your life? I thought that point really is hits at, I think, a great reason why religion has fallen away now versus in the past. And you see,
Stoney
that was an area I wanted to get into with the erosion of intergenerational transmission of religion. You know, it's less likely to be passed down within families today, and study and to validate, hopefully, what you said, studies show that fewer parents emphasize religious upbringing, and children raised in non religious households rarely adopt a faith later in life, right? So we're finding other things to do with our kids. And you know, Pew data reveals that 31% of children raised Christian no longer identify with the faith by the age of 30. Yeah, I remember. I remember going to church with my parents and my grandparents and sitting on the same pew, taking the whole pew up on Sunday morning, and that was the Hughes pew. That's it, you know? And that's what we did. And you don't do that term, you know, tournament baseball. Now it's tournament volleyball now, right? You know, we're going fishing. We're going to the camp this weekend instead of going to church.
Jason
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Church is optional now, so now that's where, and I'm gonna tell you the statistics show, when it comes to the transmission of the faith to the next generation, it's the father and not the mother that determines that. Okay, you would think it would be just the opposite, but it doesn't. What is the biggest predictor of whether children will, will will continue the faith that they grew up in is where it stood with their father, if the father viewed it as optional, or it was just simply an obligation and not a means of reaching the divine. Okay, okay, I
Stoney
could, I could see that like that. That
Jason
is, that is because I hear lots of, well, we took our kids to church every day, and all of a sudden, you know, now they don't want to go to church and all that. And I went, I'm thinking, was there any love there? Was there any explanation of why we're going to church, right? Was it something that you just, you know, just a rigidity, and I can understand as children, there are certain rules you gotta when you're raising kids, it's a little different. But as a kid gets older, it needs to change. Discussions need to happen. This is why we believe what we believe, right? But why we do this and
Stoney
see I remember this not just to check the box. We would go to church, then as a family, we would go to Don seafood, and we would fellowship together, and we would hang out together, and our grandparents could talk to us and ask us, and I had the frog legs. I always got the frog legs at Don seafood. I remember that. And it was love. It was time to spend together that. But it's also
Ian
community. That's the big thing, that's the that's the number one thing that I think that, even today, that I think churches, I think, are falling short on that. That why I say some, not all, some, are doing a great job at it, that like, more than anything else, this needs to be like a community of people that can also like, come together. This is like, it is a place of love. It is a place of getting better. It is a place of sanctuary like that. That's all it needs to like, that's like a big thing as like to have programs, have people in place that can help make that community thing happen. And
Stoney
it's funny, I asked what were the top reasons for this? And number one was family as the foundation for social stability. Yeah, what's been under attack that's been going under attack impact of religious decline on community and values, just what Ian is talking about. And then to go into what you said, connection between faith and mental health, faith has always been has offer psychological benefits, including a sense of purpose, reduce stress and resilience in the face of hardship. Okay, then here's mine. Break down a family and its social costs, loss of trust in institutions and authority. I mean socio socio economic factors also play a role. We always, like you said, we look to the church for the answers. And now, what's the most dangerous sentence on the planet? I'm from the government, and I'm here to help. Well, the go, Okay, now the government does everything for you. You have no need or desire to go to the church for the things that you need.
Jason
Yeah, and unfortunately, that that that can be bad and that can be very problematic for people that you know, if the government adopts policies that are completely contrary to the tenets of your faith, then that's where the problems come in with with Okay, how you navigate this. So, I mean, I and
Stoney
is this intentional? Well, if you look at it, if you look at the the thing that we were talking about in the pre show with Kamala Harris at her rally, when the man yells out, Jesus is Lord, and she said, You. You're at the wrong rally. But then also that same area is throwing buzz words like Christian nationalism out there and making it so supposedly unpleasant for you to be a Christian because you believe in America, your rights are God given, not government given, but
Ian
to also be devil's advocate too. They're like, that's also the problem, I think, with religion too, is that, more than anything else, the radical crazy side gets all the publicity. So even in my own life, like, I mean, there's been moments where, like, I am a Christian, and then there are some, there are there's the discussion of like, or I can tell that people are trying to feel out how far on the spectrum I am. You know what I mean? Like, how crazy Are you? Because there is, I'm not, I'm not saying it's always but like, there is that sort of thing where it's like, the reason why they're there, that buzzword exists is because there is a, probably a minority of people that is the squeakiest wheel, that is, like, causing a bunch of commotion, that's like, you know, I don't believe that way, but there are people out there the way that do, and they're
Stoney
very believe what way that our rights in America?
Ian
I'm talking about, like,
Stoney
No, I'm asking. I'm
Ian
talking about like, I'm talking about, like, radical just like, there's a radical left, there's also radical, right, where we're talking about some really hardcore stuff and, like some pretty you know, think the thing
Jason
about it, what I would say to that, and I've heard that the term radical this or radical that this is, this is where I guess I have a problem, because the way we define radical changes, think about it. Yeah, I agree people believe 35 years ago, when I was a kid growing up now, that's considered radical and drank out of a water hose. Yeah, and that's the problem
Ian
I'm talking about. But I get, I get you
Jason
just take that though, with religious beliefs, what is probably the biggest driving force right now that is causing a wedge in religious communities, abortion, not abortion. What's the other one? What's the latest denominations have split up and separated because of a particular topic,
Stoney
the woke agenda,
Ian
LGBT,
Jason
LGBT.
Stoney
thats the Woke agenda?
Jason
Well, I don't know. I don't consider that woke. I consider that a completely separate deal. So my question is, that's what I'm saying. When I was growing up, that was just understood the idea of a man and a man being married, a woman and a woman being married, and to even try to equate that to something as what marriage has always been, a man and a woman, the problem is that view is Now coined radical, whereas before it was not radical. That's where I think the issue comes in, and that also ties into what we talked about last week with how different generations view certain topics, and unfortunately, in the terms of Christianity, that particular topic has driven a lot of young people away from churches, and they're beginning to be identified as nones because they leave a particular denomination because it says
Ian
this. When you're using the term none, you mean like i There is no religious right. I
Jason
have no I'm not, I'm not, I'm not this, I'm not that. I'm just kind of a nun, yeah, and, and unfortunately, that that, that number is rising quite rapidly. Matter of fact, I think by 2070 based upon current projections, the nuns will be the majority and, well, I don't know, but I'm just saying is when I hear the term radical, radical left, radical right, right, what exactly do you mean by radical? Because it just depends on where we're at at this particular time, right?
Ian
But I'm referring to, like, in this context, what is considered radical. There is like a agreed upon normal conversation level of stuff, and then there's like this far side that, like talks about the matters. But of course, is over exaggerating, or is, or is just on the fringe of what we're all talking about here in the middle, you know what I mean? And that's what I'm talking about from like, once you start tiptoeing far over into these two different camps, you start to see the like, the almost like, disassociation from everything else. And it's like, this whole separation of like. So yes, I think it's. Changes with time, and I think that those radical extensions change as well. But it's like, whenever we're all talking amongst ourselves, and we're all like, I can view the left side, I can view the right side, but there's like, there are these portions of either side that are like, I can't even, I can't even cross over. You know what I mean, right that's what I'm talking about. Yeah, I've had some conversations with people on that far, far left or right side that are like they won't even, they won't hear anything else except for what's in their own world, and it's like it's separate from everything else. And so anyways, that's just Yeah, I
Jason
mean, well, I would venture say that's kind of what drives the wedge between what people consider themselves conservatives or consider themselves liberals, right, you know, liberals are always going to push against the established norms. That's just the way it is. And then how the how politics and how people work in
Ian
in this conversation as well? I think a overwhelming majority is this gradient of a middle I really think there is just this minority on either side, that is the that's what I'm talking about. And it's in every group. It's an, I mean, it's even in, even in religious circles. You're talking about disaffiliation, same thing. You have this wide middle section and and these two sides are trying their best to, like, pull everybody and make it feel like it's 5050, when it's not I think that, I think that politics are the same way. I think that people reside in this spectrum of a middle ground of like a normal, functioning human being. But there are these two sides that are so polar opposite that I think that they that it draws people towards them. But I think that realistically, I don't think that number is,
Jason
well,
Ian
you know that kind of that?
Stoney
Well, you know, Ronald Reagan said it best though, we're one generation away from losing all of our freedoms. And right now, if we have another four years, like we just had, that little group that Ian's talking about over here on the far left is going to destroy America, there won't be anything
Jason
Well, I mean, that's, I'm saying there are consequences to electing certain people, and we all understand that. I mean, that's a given, if this side wins, and they're gonna push their values and what they consider to be right, if the other side wins, then, you know, it's just the other way around. So, I mean, I think it's, you know, but I mean, we're looking at this deep, this deep issue of, why are people less religious today, which driving The and let's be honest,
is there, is there a crisis of faith that, really, I
Stoney
think there is, and I'm I keep coming back to Ian and his 2008 statement, he felt something changed drastically in 2008 but not religiously, just But overall, everything you
Jason
connect. I that's exactly where I'm going to admit that all
Stoney
of this connects to that feeling that may not been him specifically, but every time I'm researching last week, when we did the fourth turning, or I'm researching all of this, it all comes back to right after 2000 between 2005 and 2010 this huge shift of everything, including religion, including politics, including everything well,
Jason
that this kind of ties in and is really if we go back. I mean, when did the religious? When did kind of religion really get interjected into the US politics? Was probably about time, the 60s and well, and I always say, I would say about the election of Reagan, yeah. Well, you see, the
Stoney
that was the other thing, which that was the pendulum in the 60s and 70s, we're losing religion. Then around Reagan, we picked it back up again, and now we're on the pendulum now, thanks to the Biden crime family, that we're losing it the other way,
Jason
this particular you know, kind of following with this same article that I pulled up here. It says, For the past few decades, sociologists and political scientists have demonstrated across multiple studies that as Christianity has become increasingly aligned with right wing conservatism and the Republican Party, Americans who might otherwise identified as Christians on surveys are now identifying as nothing in particular or none. The conclusion Many seem to be drawing, is this, if this is what it means to be religious, count me out,
Ian
because I'm talking about this is what I'm talking about. When you have people, I'm not going to name any names, but you have like, political parties that claim to be Christian. When you have religious leaders that claim to be Christian, and they do some like, very awful stuff. And they say some very terrible things. It again, whether they like, what do you like or not? That is like, that is representation in some way. And so that's where I think that, like smaller communities, churches, think that's where they like. Need to be careful with some of that stuff, especially political stuff of like, I don't think that personally. I don't think that politics need to be in church. I think you need to. I think that there's, you're going to church for reason, and we're gonna, we're going there to go worship Jesus, in my personal opinion. And I think that people get really involved with what all that other stuff means. And it's like, I don't that's not, you don't need to talk about that here. We don't need to worry about that here. I understand, in like, the grand scheme of things, but like, we're talking about, like, Let's go preach a sermon. I don't think it needs to be politically charged. I think it
Jason
needs to be right. He says this is particularly the case among young people right, who often hold left leaning political views. And their award winning book, secular search, Notre Dame, political scientist David E Campbell and his co authors used experiments to show that when young Americans who leaned toward the Democratic Party were shown examples of politicians making Christian nationalist statements or pastors endorsing conservative political candidates, those young people were more likely to disaffiliate from religion. They literally changed their religious identity to nothing. This seems to be happening on a larger scale around the country.
Ian
So I just, man, I There are some great churches out there that are creating a really strong sense of community, and are loving people where they are in their life, and are creating safe places for them and their family and opportunities to give back to their community. And I mean, like trying their best and doing their part to change their little slice of the world. And I'm all for that. I want to get behind things like that. I want to get behind churches that want to out like they want to impact their community. They want to give back to their community. They want to like, love people in and through all that stuff. But there are a lot of churches, I think they put a bad taste in people's mouths like that that are very that, of course, cause this whole split and this whole frustration of it all, and this,
Jason
I was want to follow up, because I think this is a I believe this statement here says studies are showing political conservatives are increasingly Like to identify with religion. Like to identify with religion, often because of what it implies politically. For example, political analyst Gregory Smith at the Pew Research Center found that between 2016 and 2020 more white Americans began to identify with the label white Evangelical, but when exposed, but when he explored, who started identifying this way, it was almost exclusively Trump supporters. In other words, more white Americans were being drawn to identify as white Evangelical, not because of a Born Again religious conversion, yeah, but because the label itself has evolved to mean something like pro Trump, traditional family values, conservative. And I have said this all along, yep, we have made politics religion. Yes, we have Yeah, the energy that once was put into religion for whatever reason, people abandon religion, yeah? And they made politics their religion. So if I don't put my energy here, yeah, I'm putting it over here. And so politics became the new religion. All
Ian
I'm you're right, and all I'm trying to say is that there are people that may lean more liberal, that I think are not finding their place in churches, exactly which is unfortunate. I think everyone should be involved, at least in Christianity. I'm speaking from a American Christian mindset. I think everyone is welcome to church, whether you're black, white, whatever nationality you are, whatever you like, whoever you are, that you are welcome in church. That is like, that's like, rule number one of Jesus, of like, love everyone. And I think that that's, that's what I'm talking about. There are people that I know right now, people that I know very dearly that are like, I probably won't ever go to church again because of the way I got hurt by the people. But I know and again, they probably say, like, I don't I'm agnostic. I believe there's some sort of higher power all that they're they're putting it as none as their religious belief. But I feel like deep down. And if they had someone that could just truly love them and let them be a part of a community, I think that would change. I think that's something that we're missing, is it's getting very political. We're getting very divisive. And again, it's either we're devolving into our tribes, as I'm saying. And so I feel like there's, there's if there's a lot of churches that I feel like have this Republican or this certain belief system, you really find
Jason
that in the evangelical church, you're right. You do.
Ian
They're just heavy. All I say is it, there is a mentor and a religious leader that known for a long time, and he has said that if you are not uncomfortable with some of the people that you're sitting next to in church, we're not doing something right. And I was like, at first, I didn't like that, and I was in that kind of push back, because I was like, I don't I don't know about that, but the more I started to see a community grow and be involved in some things, and there were some people that I think had some different beliefs than I did, or were raised differently, or just come from a different spot in their life and their world, but I realized they're just good people, and they're trying to be a part of a good community, and they are trying to do good, and they are generous and loving and wonderful people. And I had to get I had to get over my own rubs and my frictions and what I believed I was like, I think that. I think that's right. I think that it I think that there are the church is welcome to everyone, and you're not going to agree with everyone, and sometimes people are going and sometimes people are gonna rub you the wrong way, and that's okay, but I think you need, still
Jason
need to love them, and we'll see that once again, though there's the fine line is we're called to love people, and we are. The fact of the matter is, though, there are many on what we would consider the left and the things that they're pushing that they want to make law, which in essence, is affecting everybody, often runs So contrary to what they profess to be a part of. And I think that's where inherently is the problem. How do you thread that needle, so to speak, right? How do you thread the needle? Now, some people would say, Well, let's take the abortion question. Okay, there are probably very many people that are pro, will we be considered pro choice, right? That are not necessarily want to see abortions happen, but they, they they agree that it's going to happen, and if it's going to happen, we want it to be safe and legal, right? Okay, the problem is now that's no longer what the other side wants, because it's like, Okay, once you give a little it just keeps getting pushed. And now you got people that literally want abortion all the way up to the ninth trimester, to a fully formed baby, they're okay with partial board abortion. That's so different. You're
Ian
right from what,
Jason
when Bill Clinton said it should be safe, legal and rare, right and no longer even that anymore,
Ian
whatever right by I still think that there is this, this wide middle that I still think that I can have conversations with those people in a community I'm a part of, that we can be, we can differ, and I still don't think it's even that radical. I what I'm trying to say is that like, I still think that people still may swing in the spectrum of like, this kind of gray area of like, I, you know, I am such and such, I am pro choice or whatever in this context. But then you start to, like, dig a little deeper. And I think that people will be like, I, I'm comfortable up until this point and then. But I think that they're like, you're saying that there's this, like, this radical side that keeps pushing and keeps pushing and keeps pushing that I don't think is the majority of people. Maybe I'm wrong, but I mean, it's, I wouldn't be surprised.
Jason
It's, it's, I mean, I can look at, I can look at people complain about, people complain about, you know, you know, the right they want to impose. I sometimes get on discussions, on on chats with people that post on, you know, something on Facebook, or next door, or something along those lines. And I got in a conversation with this lady that thought of Trump gets elected, we're going to have a theocracy. And I'm sitting there going, Trump probably half heartedly cares about, oh yeah, a religion, I let's be honest about that. He's never, in essence, lived. Yeah, the way a lot of people that would, they're gonna vote for him, consider what a Christian should be, right? Okay, um, I mean, it's just what it is. It doesn't necessarily mean you. He's not a flawed human being like we all are, you know, it's, you know, you have to, kind of, at the end of the day, figure out, okay, who's the better choice, yeah, and, and what policies I can, I can live with, and which ones that are just completely crazy, you know? So, yeah, I mean, I don't, once again, is what has happened to us as people, that we have lost faith. What which going on at the individual level? Hmm, what's that? Or how many people that are that are Christians today? They're, they're right now, Christians around the world that are being killed for their faith, I
Ian
think, in this modern age. And this probably ties into what you're talking about, Stoney, about the whole change in 2000 5008 situation of I think that that we, how do you word this? There's a lot more pessimism in the world.
Jason
Narcissistic, definitely.
Ian
I'm just, I'm talking about in the the lack of optimism like this, like there are a lot of people that are no longer in church, for whatever reason it is, but that lack hope, and that lack this kind of, again, we are inundated day in and day out, with social media, with news, with all kind of stuff, with religion, with political divisiveness, and the world's going to hell and and there's wars in the other side of the world, and you every tragedy that's going on the world is at your fingertips. And I think that that has not overnight, but over the course of probably 15 years or so, I think has changed people. And I think that there is this depressive atmosphere, this, like I said, pessimistic just like at this, like this, no hope for the future, no like this. I'm not saying it's overall, but I just think a majority of people are lacking this, like, optimistic, like, everything's gonna be all right, because of, like, either they haven't, they don't know the whole
Jason
where is the church growing Right now in the world? I think Africa, exactly, Africa and Asia, yep. Guess what is driving that and this kind of goes back to what I said earlier. We live a life of luxury. We are victims of our own success in this country, yep, and in the West, America trails Europe about 50 years for all intents and purposes, Christianity is dead. In Europe, it's dead.
Ian
But I is it? Though? Yes, because I don't, I don't.
Jason
I heard recently that it's changing. It's, it's, there's a lot of factors that have gone into it, but it's just the churches are empty. Now I will say that I know, from a from a Catholic side, you know, probably one of the biggest things I I hear about it was the was the child sex abuse scandal that broke out in Boston, and then that just opened up Pandora's box, and for a lot of people, it just completely soured them on on or it goes back to the failures of religious leaders to live the life and to be a beacon of hope for people, and which as me, as a Catholic, angered me to no end that how they allowed this to go on, to even give These people a second chance. They should have been defrocked the minute these allegations were brought up and been done with, and then let the law deal with, yeah, with them as as a as a pedophile. And so I do know in Europe, like, for example, I saw a stat like in Poland, which is very much a traditional Catholic country, and if I can find the statistics on it, but I think it dropped from like 46% to like 25% of people that practice in Catholic. Over there anymore. I knew a girl from Poland that left Poland, and she she's been she lives here in America now. I used to work with her some years back. I believe they've moved to another state now, but she told me of why she left the Catholic Church is because of how over there, your taxes go toward the church, as a percentage of your taxes go to the church. And I've always said, What is the reason why religion in America seems to have a little bit more sticking power is because it is really optional. You can kind of bounce around and and kind of do what you want. And kind of the fickle nature of human beings to begin with, you know, one you know, one minute I feel like this, another minute I feel like that. I mean, it's just we're fickle people, yeah, and we just are. And so it allows people to kind of explore different things, whereas I think in Europe, it's a little bit more grounded in the traditional faith, yeah, and how that faith was practiced on a day to day basis, how it interact, you know, how it intersected with your life, from birth to death. And so it's interesting, how it's about 50 years we're 50 years behind Europe, here in America. But I mean, just, just some stats I pulled here, I think said 2045 Christians are no longer the majority. 2055 non affiliate would be the largest group, and by 2070 52% of Americans would be unaffiliated with any religious tradition. So they would be those nuns. I'm just, I believe in God, and I'm gonna try to be a good Christian, but I don't really subscribe to this or that or whatever the case may be, right? Because when you subscribe to a denomination, you're subscribing to the beliefs that that denomination says right in their in their faith statement. You know, and you know, as a Catholic, I believe what the Catholic Church proclaims. For people who are Baptists, they probably profess what the Baptist Church considers their right their core, whatever it might be, or Methodists or Presbyterians, we have a we have a major, a major problem with, With this issue, because I believe, unfortunately, what is the fastest growing religion right now in the world, Muslim Muslims, Muslims. I mean, they already almost make up 10% of Europe. Well,
Stoney
in 1990 they were 12.4% of the world population. And by 2050 they're saying nearly 30% of the world population, they're
Jason
going to be nearly neck and neck with Christians in the world. And you talk about a religious belief system that is completely radical to what the Western mind would believe right? Because they believe in absolute submission to Allah, right? That's what it means to be a Muslim. And I often wonder how many Christians in today's world would be willing to sacrifice themselves for their faith.
Ian
Not a lot, exactly. Well, because, again, because they don't, because they don't have, I don't think they have a strong connection
Jason
to it. Well, I My question is, why don't you have a strong connection? Well, because
Ian
of all the reasons that we just stated, I think they've been hurt. I think they feel ostracized. They feel like they're not a part of a community. They don't, feel, I mean, like it doesn't like you're saying it's all optional now, where there's no need to intersect if they don't need to,
Stoney
there's a global attack there. I
Ian
think there's also, I mean, it doesn't help that. I think schools and things schedule things on Sundays now, like you're saying sporting events and certain like practices where, like, a lot of families are like, if my kid wants to play sports, which they love to do, and it makes them feel like they're part of a community they love. We can't go to church on a Sunday morning because of practice or whatever, which I think is,
Jason
what is the what do you think is the most churched city in America? I'd
Ian
imagine someone on the East Coast. I don't know, though,
Jason
yeah, the city with the highest amount of its population that attends some sort of religious service. Detroit,
Stoney
nope, I don't know. Chattanooga,
Jason
Tennessee, get out. Yep. Like I said, I thought six in 10 residents attend some sort of religious service. You know, what is the most unchurched? Church city in America is
Stoney
New York City, somewhere
Ian
on the West Coast, which you think I'm gonna say somewhere, probably around Los Angeles, I think close San
Jason
Francisco, right there you go around the Bay Area, the most unchurched, yeah, city in America.
Ian
Wow. That's interesting. Yep.
Jason
So believe it or not, after Chattanooga, Salt Lake City,
Ian
they're both at 59%
Jason
and then after that, Augusta, Georgia, and then my list gets all screwed up. Yeah, but believe it or not, Fourth on the list, Baton Rouge, Louisiana, okay, wow. Then Birmingham, Anniston, Tuscaloosa, then Jackson, Paducah, Kentucky, Montgomery, Greenville and South Bend.
Ian
It's interesting. A lot of times on list, Louisiana always gets put to the bottom of list, or whatever it is safety reasons, or happiness scales or all that stuff. It's always on the bottom of murder rate. Murder rate, yeah,
Jason
the most unchurched cities, the 10 most unchurched, of course, was San Francisco. Yeah. Next is Reno, Nevada, then Springfield, Massachusetts, really, wow. Then Boston, then Las Vegas, Portland, wow, that's Portland, Maine, Okay, never
Ian
mind. Then
Jason
Chico Redding, California, then Seattle, Tacoma, then Orlando, Daytona Beach, Melbourne, Florida. Oh, wow. And then Albany, New York. Wow,
Ian
interesting. It's a big spread, yeah, it doesn't, it's not Maine. It's not clustered in one area, yeah,
Jason
I mean, this is some of this is just very, you know, what gives me hope that I do believe that there are a lot of people that are waiting,
Ian
that's what I'm saying. I think there's a lot of people in this, like, this kind of, like, like, I'm saying this kind of, I say this middle ground that I think probably believe some of the of what we would consider left beliefs, but they're also, I think there are good people that I do think still believe in Christianity and some things, and I feel like they just need to find their place. And that's the hard part. Is I don't think that a lot of churches make a place for some people in that camp that, you know,
Jason
here's another question, the biggest decline in the importance of religion emerges from what group. Say
Ian
that one more time, sorry, the
Jason
biggest decline in the importance of religion emerges from what group,
Ian
and what is the group in this kind like generational group. What do you mean, like, generational
Jason
whatever. What do you think? Oh, no,
Stoney
probably millennial or Gen X
Jason
you would think, but it's not senior Americans. Get out, it went from 33% to 16%
Ian
of of people in like consider
Jason
the importance of religion, wow, followed by age group, 50 to 61 31% to 17% 30 to 49 26% to 14% and then, guess who's the best? The best one, it's group under 30.
Stoney
Well, there's not that many of them yet.
Ian
Well, I don't, wouldn't say that, I mean, but I think it's also the importance of religion. I think that is, we've talked about this as well. I do think there are P there are younger people that I think it there are people, my parents, and people in my generation, I think, have experienced the stepping away of church and living without it for a handful of years and realizing that, like maybe there is some good things about it. I think that if there's one takeaway, I think, from this episode is that me as the millennial generation, I do still feel like there is importance in it. I do still feel like I have conversations with people in my age bracket that are on that line of like I want to but there's religious connotations. There are people there that I feel like I have been ostracized because of certain belief systems I have, or certain things that I agree with and I'm like, but they do still have that they believe that faith, or that God, more than anything else, is an importance in their life. And I think that the younger people, even in like, Gen Z and so on, I think are experiencing some of that as well. Of like, there is some good things to come out of it, but Well, I
Jason
mean, the kind of the, you know, I kind of mentioned this earlier. I thought, the the kind of the. The merging of politics and religion. Part of this here, it says in, for example, in Putin's Russia. According to Pew Research, the percentage of Russians who identify with the Russian Orthodoxy has grown. But closest scrutiny shows that resurgence doesn't reflect a rise in religious practices like church attendance and prayer, right? But instead nationalistic fervor. So that's what I'm saying. You've seen religion. That's what
Stoney
you get with the state run religion, too. So,
Jason
so it's, it's, it's, it concerns me. And I have never been a fan of a of a of a church leader getting up and I endorsing political leaders, right? I think because I have never in a I've been going to Catholic mass all my life, right? And I'm a regular church goer, so I go to the holy days of obligation, and I go on Sundays, and sometimes I just go during the week, right? But not once, not one time have I ever seen a Catholic priest get up at the pulpit and endorse a candidate, right ever. Not once, which
Ian
is the way I'm 55 years old, which is the way I think it should I have
Jason
been going to church for that long. And not one time that I ever hear a pastor talk about that, right? And the same thing now you need to what I would venture to say is what, how it's taught with my experiences, is, this is what the Church teaches. Use that to form your conscience and vote appropriately, and that's the way, if
Stoney
we voted our conscious, we wouldn't be in the problems that we're having today. It's when we don't vote our conscious and we start voting for these other things that we think we're going to do or get away with that we run into the problems that we're in today, if people just voted their conscious Kamala Harris wouldn't be even running right now.
Jason
Well, I don't know if, maybe, maybe not. I don't know that. I mean, because at the same time, and that's I'm saying, this is kind of where I'm it's complicated that, you know? Yeah, you need to vote your conscience. You need to look at what your if you truly subscribe to, what your church teaches you
Stoney
exactly what I just said, You
Jason
truly do. Then the question is, it's okay. Well, then what are we doing for the poor? What are we doing for all these other things that also required? But see once again, this is where you got to be careful, because Christianity was born in an idea of what in within a pagan society, okay, right? Christian was born in a pagan society, and it radically was different than what the state provided. So it came from. It was radically and what drew people to it, what did, what would? How did the church grow? What do we say all the time? How did the church grow? From those earliest times, it was the blood of the martyrs that provided the fertilizer for Christianity to grow. It isn't it didn't for anything else. Other people were looking at these people that were willing to go to their deaths in often gruesome fashion, and they were joyful. What has Christianity turned into in today's world? It's become optional. It's become feel good. It's become there is really no social consequence.
Stoney
Well, it's become the latest motivational speaker who can get the biggest group of people together. Now it's all about motivation, and it's not about sacrifice. It's not about people doing for other people. It's people with their hand out, and what's what's it gonna do for me? It
Jason
had nothing to do, and I'm sorry if I'm stepping on toes. It's not about feeling good, that's right. Christianity was never about self affirming. Was never about any of that. It often meant my life was gonna suck. It was gonna be hard. Hard I was going to get rejected by this world. That's what it meant to be a Christian. It's now turned into something completely different. It is a lot of self help, self motivation, prosperity gospels. I was listening to this guy talk the other day about, oh, God, wants me to be to be rich and all this. What was this guy's name over that? See,
Ian
this is what I'm talking about as well. Of like, the that's what I'm talking about is that there is this radical other side that I say radical. I probably shouldn't use that term, but there's this other side where it's like, those people can amass large groups of people make them feel good, and, of course, claim that it's Christianity. And then whenever the rubber meets the road, people start to realize, like, oh, I don't, I don't want to be that. Well, it's hard, but that's hard, and that's what I'm saying, is that I think that, gosh, I can't even get into it right now, but like, it's
Jason
hard. No, I get what you're saying. You know, I really do trust me. I understand that it's
Ian
people like that that give I think you were talking about you. You attend your Catholic masses. You haven't heard a pastor or a priest or whomever, endorse a political candidate. I'm in the same boat. I surround myself with or I'm part of a community that I feel like I'm in the same boat where, like, the political leanings isn't part of the sermon, or who they're gonna right. I've never experienced that because I'm also I don't, but know that there are, there is a lot of pastors that do that. There is a lot of non denominational churches out there that don't have any sort any source of they claim to have a source of, like chain of command and authority and what is it called, whenever accountability, they claim to have accountability, but realistically they don't. And I've seen a couple of those churches as well, where it when you start to look, when you start to really dig down deep, it's like, you're just a, you're just a guy up here preaching to a crowd of people, right? And then, and then went like, like, we said, Whenever the rubber meets the road and like, and your faith is tested, that's where it starts to falter. But, I
Jason
mean, that's what I'm saying. It's it. We Christianity has turned into a business, yeah, for many people, yeah. And look, I don't know the state of their heart, you know, I really don't. I don't they're falling people, just like everybody else. But you know, there's a part of me that sits back and go, Well, is that really what is kind of meant to be? You know, Jesus talks a lot about, you know, taking up your your cross and follow Me, which indicates difficulty, which means that things are not going to be easy at all. And, you know, matter of fact, not to get too heavily into religion. But this last Sunday at church, the gospel was about, you know, James and John were confirming Jesus about sitting at his right and sitting at his left. And what did Jesus tell him? He goes, let me pull you aside. Let me tell you. Do you really know what you're asking for that you know the Son of Man came to serve right not to be served. He goes, Are you willing to reject what conventionally man thinks of what that means? And they said, Well, yes, we are. He goes, Okay, then you will drink the same cup I drink. And guess what? 10 of the 11 apostles, they all die in water's deaths. They did every one of them, except John, who died in exile. So this idea that we have become, I'd say it, we have become soft. We don't need God if we really want to get right down to it. For many people, I don't really need God because I've got everything else I need. I've got a nice home, got a nice car, got a god job? I
Ian
hear you, and I think it's more so that they think that they don't, well, you're right and that. But there comes this point, like I was saying, with this, this lack of hope, this lack of optimism, this, not this. There are a lot of people, I think, going through a lot of stuff right now, and they feel like they don't, but I but there, I have seen a number of people that I think have experienced the fact that there is something out there that they I need. But I
Jason
think the biggest crisis right now facing is, right now is the LGBT stuff I really do, and it's a statistic show in that i. How we manage to get through this, I don't know, because I don't know what churches are supposed to do when you've got churches that are in essence affirming these type of relationships as as normal and as sanctioned by God as a traditional man and a woman. And I don't know how churches are going to navigate this, because, believe me, with even within my own Catholic church right now, there's, there was a schism broom brewing in Germany, with the German Bishops wanting to outright bless homosexual marriages, and there's been a push back. And guess where the pushback is coming from? The bishops in Africa and Asia, Western Europe is is lost in many ways, on this and and I'm telling you that right now, you look at the statistics, what is driving young people away? I see it all the time. Well, I don't agree with my church's view on LGBTQ. It is. And this is what I'm saying. This at one time was not a radical teaching. This was normal. Why is it all of a sudden, normal? Why is it now radical to believe the other way? What happened? What happened to our world,
Ian
with a world smaller, like I told you, like there's a moment where, where everyone struggles, all became our struggles at the push of a button. Yeah. Anyways,
Jason
yeah. I mean, this is I'm telling you. As I said, I don't have the answers for it. I just think to talk about these issues, to bring them out there. This is what the statistics are showing. We all have to kind of look at ourselves and go, you know, what's going on here? And as I said, as we talked about last week, with the fourth turning, I believe we are in a crisis, and something will come out on the other end.
Ian
Oh yeah, something will now come out now. What is it we don't know yet. Yeah, I have been fun. I have hope. I have hope. I have hope, I have optimism that something's gonna work out, but who knows, with that being said, thank you so much for listening. We have all of our different social media links and places where you can find us as per usual. You can type, in retrospect, pod on most places and find ways to get involved and listen to us or communicate with us. Also have our email getdefined together@gmail.com where you can send us some responses or questions as well, at our website and our website as well,
Stoney
retrospect podcast.com
Ian
there you go.
Stoney
This isn't just about family dinners or Sunday church services. This is about the very soul of America, our identity, our strength and our future. Social media and individualism are telling our kids that they don't need faith or family, but we all know better. If we don't take a stand now, if we don't let this generational weakness continue, the freedoms that we hold dear could disappear. America's enemies know this, and they are counting on us falling apart from the inside. But we're not done yet, not by a long shot. The question is, what kind of nation are we going to hand down to our children? It's time to make the right choice,
Ian
and until next week, thank you so much for listening. Bye, bye.
Jason
Goodbye everyone, God bless.
Stoney
Thanks for hanging out with us today. You're the best. Peace.