Retrospect
Retrospect
Beyond Human: Exploring Transhumanism | Retrospect Ep.184
In this week’s episode we discussed the world of transhumanism. The belief in using technology to enhance the human condition. From brain-computer interfaces to gene editing and AI integration, we explore the promises, ethical questions, and future possibilities of transcending biological limits.
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Retrospect
Transhumanism, immortality, AI, genetic engineering, brain chips, human enhancement, ethical dilemmas, technological advancements, societal impact, inequality, human identity, longevity, brain-computer interface, neural enhancements, future of humanity.
Jason
The year is 2090 The streets are clean. Air is filtered, and no one is sick, but almost no one is truly human anymore. Citizens walk past each other with glowing eyes, their thoughts connected to the hive net, a global AI consciousness that filters emotions and blocks descent. Those who refuse upgrades live underground, disconnected and hunted for being biological liabilities. A child watches old videos of her grandfather, a man who aged, forgot things and laughed freely without biometric optimization. She wonders what it meant to feel something without an algorithm correcting it. In a world where perfection is mandatory, Freedom has become the most dangerous idea.
Welcome to the retrospect podcast, a show where people come together from different walks of life and discuss a topic from a generation's perspective. My name is Ian, and as always, I'm joined by Stoney,
Stoney
hello
Ian
and Jason,
Jason
hello everyone.
Ian
What an intro.
Stoney
That's an intro.
Jason
Well, I'm telling you that is potentially our future. Well,
Stoney
we're talking about transhumanism. So what I did was I kind of came together with an interesting, just true definition of what Transhumanism is. Transhumanism is a philosophical and scientific movement that advocates for using advanced technologies, particularly in medicine, genetics, robotics, artificial intelligence, to enhance human physical and cognitive abilities, ultimately aiming to transcend the natural limitations of the human body and mind. At its core, transhumanism explores the idea that humanity can and should evolve beyond its current biological state through the integration of technology with biology creating humans who are healthier, stronger, smarter and potentially even immortal.
Jason
And I believe that is the goal for a lot of trans humanist is the idea of immortality? Yeah, I really do. Now, whether we get there or not, I don't know.
Stoney
Well, there's some dark sides to this too, because there's a lot of people believe that only the ultra elite will be benefiting from this. Even in your statement, people like me, I'm going to be living underground, fighting, right? Yeah, I'm not going to be able to afford all that. Who can afford it and who can do it? Well,
Jason
that's, that's, that's the two schools of thought. I mean, because, you know, there's some people who they're like, there's like, couple camps when it comes to this stuff. And, you know, of course, you got, like, anything. We got the political left. We got the political right. And a lot of people think Transhumanism is rooted in in leftists, kind of the left side of thinking, believe it or not, it actually has its origins more on the right side, sort of like the genetic Superman. A lot of this, or, you know, I would venture to say some of this comes from, Frederick Nietzsche. This was kind of talked about with, with the Third Reich, with Adolf Hitler and the Aryan race and building of the Superman. I think I've read some stuff that there was some genetic experimentation during those years to try to create super soldiers. So, yes, I do believe that there is a lot of downside to this, you know, as well as a lot of good side. I guess the idea of, you know, I've talked about it multiple times, I've always felt like the future of medicine, the idea that they can grow replacement organs in a bank, so to speak. So when one organ falters or gets disease, or whatever the case may be, they can plug a new one in, and you're rocking and rolling. So you know, theoretically, how long that could extend someone's life if, in essence, I can basically replace pretty much all my organs and return me to a state of of when I was 15 years old. You know, just the thought of it is quite incredible. Well, it's
Stoney
been going. On for a long time. Okay, even in Greek mythology, there was talks of this kind of stuff. The story of Icarus, the man reaching for that guy, okay, but then Prometheus, also, he was, you know, bring, you know, bringing, you know, different things, fire, technology meant to help man's age, age old desire to become greater and stronger and better and immortal. But a lot of the stuff has seen some recent literature on it too, and I'd like to give a couple examples. Francis Bacon in 1605 came out with the advancement of learning, but one that's going to stick out in everybody's head, maybe more than anything. Anybody remember Mary Shelley, yes. Frankenstein? Frankenstein, yep. Okay, that, you know, if you think about that, that's one of the earliest cautionary tales of using science to play God. Okay, we're going to remove God from the equation because, you know, and showing both the potential and the perils of altering human nature. So this has been going on for a while. People have been thinking about this for a really long time, and now the technologies are starting to catch up with people's thoughts and dreams. But I kind of disagree with you in a little bit, let you went kind of the left and right thing. I don't believe it's left and right. I think it's ultra elite versus the have nots. And I think when you look at people like Bill Gates, who want to kill off half of the population leave only enough to serve the ultra elite who are now going to be able to possess this technology, right? That's the direction I think it's going. I think this whole left and right thing is a smoke screen to the ultra elite and what they really want to do, and all you got to do is look at people like Bill Gates and some of these other people who are trying to change us genetically. Which, guess what? That's transhumanism. Well,
Jason
I mean, you know, I know Elon Musk has talked about neural link. He's an advocate of brain chips.
Ian
Also think that he's done some genetic stuff with his children. Speculation, yeah, there's a that one. There's a large there's a large number of there's a large number of boys that he has, as opposed to girls. And I think there's also some stuff that people say that the whole, like, genetic engineering, designer baby type stuff kind of like what my intro was like. I think a lot of his children, I think are IVF, where you can also do, you can manipulate. You can pick technology and pick certain embryos and certain things. Right now, that's all speculation that could be false, but people are like, if anybody would probably do, I
Jason
mean, he's an avowed transhumanist. I mean, he's mad at that, and I think he, I mean, that's part of the reason, I mean the push for Mars and the I think part of that is enhancing the human condition where it could survive in the somewhat hostile environment of the Martian atmosphere. So I kind of understand, maybe the backdrop of what he's trying to get at in doing that. But, you know, I saw that every I saw some things that a lot of money has been now pumped into project Stargate, yeah, which found, I found interesting that, you know, a project that was implemented in the 70s is found new found new life. And it'd be interesting to see. You know, I think with the advances in AI, and I think you're going to see a lot of this happening now. And I, I think why you're hearing this trends, transhumanism, stuff that's come up a lot lately is, I personally think they're, they are a lot further along with AI. Yeah, that that tells me right there that behind the scenes, that the the the infrastructure is is kind of in place, so to speak. Well,
Stoney
we discussed this on a past episode. You know, most people believe AI has only been around for five to 10 years. We discussed it. It's actually been around since the 60s in some form. We just have not had access to it. But what they do is, is they, they, they baby feed us little things to kind of gear us up for what's really happening, and then, oh well, it's already there. Great. Oh, it's already there, great, and that's what they're doing with AI. It's been around a long time. Yeah, baby fed us with movies, with books, with all kind of stuff with AI, actually, on your own computer. Now you think, think
Jason
of just data technology in general. I mean, we. Don't really know if it's good or bad for us because, I mean, think about something as simple as the television. What did that turn a lot of people into a babysitter, a couch potatoes? Yep. I mean, you're thinking just this box that delivers pictures and shows to you, you would think it would be quite innocent, but unfortunately, it had. It had a lot of downside to it,
Stoney
but it started something. And I have a possible future guest that I've been talking to, and I'll kind of lead into this a little bit. This lady has many documented certificates and diplomas, but her thing is, is like with the TV, but the cell phone, yeah, okay, when a new mother has a baby and she's holding that baby before the cell phone, what happened? She looked at the baby and there was a bonding correct? Now, what's happening?
Jason
Mom is looking at the phone, she's looking at the phone, and they not looking at the baby, not looking
Stoney
at the baby, so that bonding is not there. So what are we doing to our children, just with that one little thing? Well, I
Ian
would think people need to put the phone down a little bit. Well, I think, I think a lot of it is we're in a world now where it's like I said before, you're the, the most important commodity right now is your attention, yeah. Oh, and that's the, and that's what social media and all these entertainment companies bank on as they bank on you stick just always need more, always watching more, always being stuck on it. That's, that's how they're able to get money, is through advertising to you. So it's all, it's all just capitalizing. But
Stoney
also, if you're not raising their kids,
Ian
they are raising your, oh, they don't care about raising the kids.
Stoney
Well, they're what they're they're not raising the kids. They're raising your kids. They're putting stuff in their head and letting it grow. That's usually the parents job,
Ian
right? I don't even think they I don't think they care about that. All I care about is money, and that's the that's the big thing.
Stoney
I think they have cared about it from Rockefeller back in 1905
Ian
I'll talk about tech companies and things like that. People who what do the kids do now? They're on my phone that's watching stuff that that's I'm saying they want them to watch on corporate meetings. All they're caring about is capitalizing attention. I don't care who it is. Yeah, I care at what cost it is. I don't care at what age it is. It's all about, how do we get more eyes on our product for longer? And I think that's what they care about. So you're right, even if, even if that woman is not raising her child and and they're watching YouTube videos or watching social media stuff, I think it's still, you know, well, back
Stoney
in the TV time, the TV became the babysitter, right? Well, now the phone and the pad is the babysitter, right, right? So the babysitter basically raises the kid. So now they're watching all this, and now with the internet, they have complete access to whatever they want. Well,
Jason
just I was kind of reading a little bit on the history of transhumanism, and it's, you know, just kind of for our listeners, it was first properly arise by the English biologist and philosopher Julian Huxley. In his 1957 essay of the same name, Huxley held that it was now possible for social institutions to supplant human evolution. So there is a deep seated idea that, within the transhumanist community that the human condition is not finished. It's the idea that being human is not good enough, right? And it's, it's finding ways that we're basically, we're we're we're constantly evolving. And it's, it's, this is the next step, and we should just accept it and roll with it, and just accept that one day we will not look the way we look now, right within that community, that's kind of the thinking. So they believe that, you know, hey, it's just, what is it? We just have to accept that, you know, within a certain time, whether it's 100 years from now, 200 years from now, however long it takes that, that the the the marriage of of of tech in in biology is inevitable. Well, he
Stoney
grew up in an interesting time. He was born in in the late 1800s and died, I think, in what 75 I think he died. He saw so much, you kind of wonder somebody during that time, watching the people land on the moon, but then the first car and everything, that was a big fear of people back then, of what technology
Jason
I mean, you look at just what people look at how science fiction movies were made, and what was the view of the future. You know, from their perspectives, exactly how. How humans would would interact with
Stoney
right now, we're just supposed to be able to push a button and the maid comes, the little robot mate comes and cleans exactly and and,
Ian
I mean, maybe not in so many ways, not an identical way, but in so many ways. We, we do have a lot of that. We do have some things that are like, again, not one to one, but like, You got Roombas. Now that, like, just on, on an ad, yeah, whatever you got,
Stoney
lawn mowers. Now, I know, so bad, right? A robot.
Ian
So, again, we don't have flying cars. But like, again, I do think we do. We have, we have some, I mean, very robust air travel that is, I mean, highly regulated and very safe, and it's incredible.
Jason
But in really, in the 80s, a lot of this stuff really took off. There's a lot of groups, you know, organizations that were formed during this time that advocated for human life extension, cryonics, Futurism, basically, which is this current, the study of current trends in order to discipline and plan for and influence their possible outcomes. In 86 American engineer Kay Eric Drexler published Engines of Creation, an exploration of the future applications of nanotechnology and molecular manufacturing. I
Ian
think a lot of this too is coming out because we had a discussion on this in our quantum computing episode, like, there was a lot of talks of it a handful of years ago. But obviously, I think it was like the government at the time had said, like, there's just no, like, viable way that we can, like, sustainably do this, like, with the power we have and all that kind of stuff. And you're seeing it pop up now, because their capability, like the framework, like you said, is there. And I feel like it's the same sort of thing for this kind of stuff is like, I think that the idea was has been around for a while, but, yeah, I mean, I think the things that are allowing it to make it happen now are kind of more feasible or efficient, which is, now I'm bringing this back into the conversation, yes,
Jason
in the in the 90s, extra pianism. Did y'all see that word when y'all were kind of looking at this stuff? It's a libertarian doctrine that advocates overcoming human limitations through technology. It came to the forefront of the transhumanist movement the British philosopher Max Moore founded the extropy Institute early in the decade with American philosopher and lawyer Tom Bell, who used the term entropy to designate A concept oppositional to entropy, highlighted the movements, individualistic, proactive approach to expanding human potential. So I mean, this stuff is, I'm telling you some of this stuff. I mean, I listen to a lot of stuff and and coming from a and I'm gonna go in a direction here that probably people are not thinking. But you know, we all consider ourselves Christians, and we all kind of understand kind of how mankind was formed and man's place in the cosmos. And you know, ultimately, our ultimate destination. What is the one thing that could basically make us forsake that never thought about this until I started not an apple. It wasn't well, I mean, yeah, I mean, we can kind of go into that. That's some interesting topics there, of the interpretation of the apple. But how about if we abandon our band in our humanity and we're not human anymore? What does that make us? I it's I want to
Stoney
go here. Let me touch on something there. And Ian said it before, and my wife has said it before. What did COVID do with the masks? It started taking away the humanity of people. Because now you're not looking at somebody's face, now you're just kind of looking at somebody's eyes, right, started taking the humanity away. What if that was kind of a pre test about removing the humanity?
Ian
Have you guys ever watched a show called Ghost in the show? Yes, it's a it's a very, very popular classic anime from the 90s. And there's a whole bunch of different like versions of it, for those who don't know, and this is a a future scenario where people can heavily augment their body with prosthetics and things like that. And it starts off simple, where you can get, you know, it looks it looks human. Like, looks like a regular arm, but it's actually a prosthetic arm, and all these different internals, and the kind of the the head scratching part of the show deals with cyber brains and how you can have your personality. You can have you can have every you can be fully robotic, but you can have all the memories and and personality of yourself. But then then there starts to get this question of like, Is it really you, though, or is it a copy of you? And then, of course, they start to deal with this kind of, this, the ethical, the ethical dilemmas there, and that's where the what the name Ghost in the Shell means is like is are you? Is there? Is there a spirit? Is there something else? Is there something that makes you you, that is not there whenever we make this shell, whenever we make this robot, or whatever, that kind
Jason
of stuff. And that's another movie that is another
Stoney
Hold on, hold on. I want to go there bicentennial. Man, yeah, and it was kind of the opposite, yeah, because now one of Robin Williams, greatest, yeah, he was an Android, yep, who now wanted those human traits, right? And he did everything he could have over what? How long did he say he lived, like, 200 years, and I was going to do this. I have some paperwork on this. I'm kind of glad we went this. It took me, like, three days to remember what the damn movie was, yeah, but I had, you know, when I found it, I was like, this would be a great conversation, because can Android or robot have a soul?
Jason
And that's what kind of goes back to the time that we had that little discussion, and Ian got all upset, you know, because we were cloning, cloning and stuff
Ian
like that. Well, because, again, I think, I think the upsetness for that was like a different thing with cloning and with, of course, the freedom of people and that kind of thing. I think for AI, and I think for robots, my belief, and again, I'm always willing to be wrong. I whenever I state anything, I'm not saying this is I am 100% I don't think that a robot or AI or anything can produce a soul. I think that they have a good job of of puppeting like they do. But I think when you really boil it down, and when you really peel back the surface, there's a lot of intricacies inside humans, and there's a lot of things that we don't fully understand that makes humans what they are. And I think that, I think that AI, I think that robots will It will all be manufactured. And it's all very evident once you start to really peel back the surface and look deep inside of it, none of it is actually all of its own. It is all had a human touch. It has all been created and artificially made. All these language models that we have are it's not doing it on its own. It's all had human intervention. It all has large database sets of information that is all brought from humans, and it's all that's what I believe. I think that, and I think in the future, it is going to be harder for us to distinguish if these robots have a soul or, quote, unquote, feeling self awareness, self awareness or feeling things. Because I think they're going to do a really good job of pretending they do. But I don't think it's going to be real,
Jason
but you'll have groups defending, oh, 100% Oh, absolutely. You have groups
Ian
now that are doing it and again, once you start, once you start to, like, like I said, once you look a little bit deeper inside of it, you're like, Oh, this is all fabricated.
Jason
Well, you know, kind of movie that really touched on that a lot, that everybody's probably no Well, Lucy is one that's the, just the expanding of the human mind. It was, was I Robot? Yes, yeah. Was, you know, the movie with Will Smith
Stoney
and which gave me the opening for the AI episode, yeah. I mean, I mean,
Jason
but I mean, it's, this is, I mean, that you go down to what is being human at what point, how many modifications do I make to myself that I am no longer a human being, right? Where is that line? And I think that's where the transhumanists, where the ethical dilemmas come in is I mean, if I have a an artificial brain, and the only thing that's left of me, human wise, I've got some blood vessels and a heart, or maybe I have something else, but maybe that I've replaced pretty much every Am I still a human being. I was born here. Well,
Stoney
as a Christian, the blood is very important. Christ, the blood, blood. Well, we've been talking about stuff in the future, but we're close. And I think the real reason for this episode is real close. I have a couple of things here, modern transhumanism in action. And the biggest one, and it touches on the brain, is the first person to be implanted with a neuro Link was in 2024 Power, and this person can now control things using brain power, like the mouse and the screen and stuff and brain computer interfaces is basically what it is. And the global BCI market is projected to reach 6 billion by 2030 right? And already around 30,000 people has had, have had some form of BCI, invasive or non invasive, implanted for medical uses like epilepsy monitoring or ALS communication, right? AIDS. That's crazy. But then you went on the second one. Sorry, I pointed the wrong direction, um, prosthetics and bionics. That's the next. Oh, yeah. That is, remember The $6 million Man? Yep, he was The $6 million Man. And they did in today's dollars, it would be like $45 million
Jason
yeah, I thought, I thought, I thought one time I saw a figure of 60 million Yeah, to basically create the enhancements that he had. Yeah,
Stoney
he, um, we've had a number of people, Hugh, her a double amputee, developed MIT's bio caltronics lab prosthetics legs in response to nerve signals for life, like movement. Y'all love this. It's called the Luke arm, named after Luke Skywalker, is a Mind Control prosthetic developed by DARPA and approved by
Jason
the FDA, that old DARPA. We need to do an episode on DARPA.
Stoney
Over 2 million amputees in the US alone, with 185,000 new amputees each year. That's from the amputee coalition. The bionics market now, not amputee. The bionics market is projected to exceed 10 billion globally by 2027
Jason
keep going up. Well, I'm gonna tell you. I mean, right now, all the big wigs are very much into this right now. Larry Page, Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, you know. Page, launched Calico Life Sciences. Calico labs, that's just a company dedicated extending the human lifespan through advanced technologies in 2022 Bezos and other factors invested 3 billion in at altos labs, a biotech company seeking to reverse aging and disease. Of course, you all know must found Space X in 2002 hoping to establish human colonies on the Moon and Mars and launch neural link in 2016 to develop implantable brain chips in 2022 the brain chip company Synchron announced that it had, it had announced that it successfully implanted a chip in the brain of an ALS patient in the United States. The chip was designed to enable severely paralyzed patients to operate digital forms of communication with their thoughts. So, I mean, you know, we're, we're, we're close. I mean, I could, I could definitely see within the next 50 to 75 years where, I mean, you think that's about the equivalent time from about World War Two to where we're at now. You think of all the developments that occurred. So, I mean, you Yeah, if you extrapolate that, and we do kind of the same jump over the next 75 years. I mean, now you're getting into that time frame of 2080, 2090, you know? Yeah, I could easily see parents gene editing their children. It's happening now, yeah, but even on a more, you know, accessible, more common. And then what does that? How does that translate? I mean, how does that change our world? Yeah, that you have now people that are, for all intents and purposes, in potentially living to 120 150 years old, maybe even longer. How does that change the whole dynamics of our planet? Well, that's
Stoney
why, what ding dong. What's his name? I just said him earlier. Bill Gates wants to kill half the people on the planet through vaccinations, because they know as people start to live longer, the population is going to get bigger and bigger and bigger. But if you go ahead and kill off, and this is not my words, I don't want anybody going Bill Gates and his group of people want half the people on the planet gone so that they can live longer.
Jason
Well, I think that's where you you're getting to this, this, like this push for, you know, colonies on other worlds that, okay, there's two ways you can look at it if we're going to develop technologies and. And we're going to enable people to live a whole lot longer, which is going to lead, lead to, you know, they would say overpopulation. I have my kind of my thoughts on that. But regardless, and that's more people than we can ship off to go to other planets too.
Stoney
Like you said, Maybe instead of the left and the right, maybe that's the two avenues. One, colonize Mars and the Moon, etc, and then one, kill off a bunch of people. Maybe that's going to be the two different directions that the world is going to have to choose. And we
Ian
also don't know, I think, long term either, like, so I think we're talking about all these hypotheticals of, like, what if everyone's able to live longer, but like, what if that's just, what if there's some sort of limitation that, like, you can, you know, wait, mentally and internally, you can probably, but like, at a certain point, like, what? Like, there we
Jason
don't know what that's the problem. That's what I'm saying, just like I mentioned earlier about the advent of the television, yeah, no one ever thought that that would lead to basically leading to people being being couch potatoes, in the health degradation that occurred when people stopped going outside, being in the sun and and being deficient vitamin D, and then all the health issues that have come, you know, fast food technology that we created to spoke fast food, no one thought that the health benefits that we're now realizing, that has now been advocated by, you know, RFK junior, and you know that that whole, you know, that whole line of thinking that you know we need to Change how you know, we've, we've put all these processes in place, not realizing it had a it will consequences, and I think it's the same here. We don't know what this might lead to, right? We, we can speculate, but we're not going to probably be here in 75 years. We don't know what. You know, our our grandkids and great grandkids will, you know, as time goes on, what they will be, what their world
Stoney
will look like? Well, it's going to be different. You're the Gen Xer. When you had to pull a note all night or at school, what did you do? You drank a lot of coffee, yeah, okay, now what they're doing is, is they're using bio enhanced pills and brain chips. Yeah, you know, what is it to no new tropics. It's it's new kind of smart drugs, like Modafinil. Students and executives are using this for cognitive boosts. So instead of earning the midnight all, we're just gonna pop a drug, we're gonna have an implant that we put in, and we can just stay up all night and do it. Well,
Jason
I don't think they really, truly understand, you know, what's the purpose of sleep? Because it's, you know, I know it's restorative, but you know what I mean, why? What there? I think there's still some unknowns when it comes to that. And I think if you can develop technologies where someone doesn't need to sleep, just think how that changes. I think
Ian
that all, it's one of those things where, like, that all sounds beautiful and romantic, but like I feel like there's always, there's always going to be that, that human element that comes back to kick you in the butt, and I
Jason
agree
Stoney
with that. If you don't sleep, you die. This proven, if you don't dream, you
Jason
die. Did y'all see the Did y'all read the study, speaking of that, and kind of dovetail a little bit on that. Did y'all see the study they did in I believe it was Russia. They kept somebody else pretty dark. Yes, very dark. Yes. Of what happens to the human being, they basically go Stark or even mad, yeah. But yeah, check that out. If everybody's listening to this. It's kind of Google sleep study in Russia. And quite it's quite disturbing.
Ian
But like I, I think that there's limitations. I think that, again, it's all it's I feel like it's the same thing in like, the vape world. Everyone was talking about how beautiful and how romantic it was, and now that we were, like, 10 years out from all, like, the popularity of it all, like, you know, there's a big there's a whole new issue of problems because of it, and it's the same sort of thing with that. I think brain chips and drugs can probably keep you up for long and it makes you feel good in the moment. But like, in the grand scheme of things, it's not health wise. Health wise completely destroys you over time, I think. And I think they say, I think everything in moderation, and especially with some of this stuff too, I feel like we've talked about augmentations and prosthetics and things for people with certain debilitating illnesses or conditions or whatever. And I totally am. I'm cool with that. I think if there's someone that has some for. Limitation, or has lost an arm, or is or has some sort of motor function issue, like, I think this is the kind of technology that's like, we should be focusing on and making that happen. And I think that in the future, I think that there are probably more applications for things like that. And I think that's wonderful. It gets to a point where we start to, like, change things and augment things for the sake of it, just because. And I think again, there comes a point where you could reach a threshold of, again, like the Ship of Theseus, where, if you start, once, you start augmenting and changing everything inside of yourself, are you still yourself now at that point? Well,
Jason
that's that goes back as I'm saying, what at what point do you lose your humanity? And if you lose your humanity, then what are you?
Stoney
We used to dream about walking on the moon. Now we're trying to upload our minds onto the cloud. Have we already gone too far?
Jason
Well, I mean, I mean, there is talk out there of, you know, marrying consciousness to machines, and somehow I can download my my brain into a machine, then, in essence, have I achieved immortality, right?
Ian
And I think, whenever you really think, whatever I go from what my gut feeling is, this is not based on anything except for just my feeling and my, my world experience and my, my spiritual experience. I think if you were to upload your consciousness onto the onto the to the whatever and whatever, whatever that might be, whatever you want to call it, I think it will just be information on a hard drive. It might be. I don't think that your soul, your spirit, that what makes you alive and feel will be superimposed on that machine. I think you will your all your data will be there, and there may even be an AI that can play a convincing role. But I think your memories, your memories, and there'll be a nice voice of you that can play them all back for people. It will be for the people that are here. But I think what makes you intrinsically you. The life force that break makes you feel your soul, all that stuff, I don't think is something that could be superimposed on a machine. I think, again, I think they can pretend it. But I think in the grand scheme of things, when that all happens, if all of us will look at that and say, Oh, it's, it's grandma, but, but in the in the real once you peel back the surface, it's not, it's not really, I kind of
Jason
did y'all, did y'all watch the movie? The came out several years ago. It was a remake, I believe is HG Wells a time machine, yeah? And remember that scene where he is, obviously, he's been transported far in the future, yeah? And he's talking to the remnants of that librarian that's behind the glass. You need to check it out, but it's interesting. That's how I can see memories of an individual. Think about this. You go to a, you know, we're gonna go see grandma, grandpa. You go to say, you go to a graveyard, and you show up, and it picks it up. And also an image of grandma or grandpa pops up, and they start talking to you from their memories, yeah. I mean, I can see some crazy stuff like that. I'm
Ian
a big Star Wars fan. I love Star Wars. And in the right, yeah, and in the in the lore of it, they have these things called holocrons and and some of the Jedi Masters from way long time ago uploaded their all their training and knowledge on a certain facet right, and uploaded it to this, this kind of like special, fancy computer type device. And so whenever you would access it, a hologram pops up and it's that person right from eons ago, and they can hold a conversation with you to a certain degree about this thing, and I feel like that's where my feelings are coming from. Is like the consciousness of that individual isn't there, but all their all their life and all their knowledge, all experiences, is there, and there's a depiction of there of them. And you're like, wow, I can learn this, this craft, from this master that's like, that has had first hand experience and is in is devoted all this time to doing this. I think that's what it's going to be by my personal feeling. I think what I think there's something intrinsically spiritual and something that is that we are created beings, that they cannot be recreated by humans no matter how hard we try. I don't think we're going to be able to do that. We can. We can play God. We can pretend like we're God. But I think there gets to a point there's a threshold where we keep butting up against it, where we're not going to be quite there.
Jason
Well, I mean, I think, no, remember the
Stoney
Babylonians tried that one got slapped down the next week.
Jason
Yeah, I think it's, it's, I mean, we as I'm saying, we're saying that, but for people who are strictly materialist, right, right? Okay, you're right that really have no faith that there is. The way we understand life after death, that are they view everything as consciousness. And you know, the laws of, I guess, would be laws of thermodynamics. You know, energy is either created or destroyed. And also, where does it go?
Stoney
Well, it never disappears. Something else. What I did was, I kind of went into this, we're a generational show. Obviously, I'm the boomer. We have Gen X and a millennial. And I kind of wanted, I started researching some surveys and some stuff like that. A Boomer me was born in 46 to 64 what were the main concerns of transhumanism in this group? The number one main concern in my age group was, are we playing God? Number two, fear of losing control to AI or becoming less human, and a complete distrust in biotech corporations and data privacy. You know, yeah, only 28% of boomers support the idea of brain chimps to enhance memory or performance. Gen X, 65 to 80. Number one, widening inequity. Will enhancements only be for the rich? Two, tech addiction or over surveillance? And three, philosophical what does it mean to be me if I enhance or replace my brain? You know, and 46% of Gen Xers say they would consider life extension technologies if proven safe and affordable? Yeah, millennials, 81 to 96 wellness through wearables, supplements and smart tech, using each using tech to overcome mental challenges. Ai therapy apps like woe bot interest and personal data sovereignty and ethical AI use. 62% of millennials support using gene editing to eliminate disease before birth. Yeah, and the last one I looked at was Gen Z. Their their things were, see physical and digital identity as fluid, interested in neural enhancements and body augmentation as self expression, and worry less about ethics and care more about access. 73% of Gen Z believe technology will eventually merge humans and machines in a meaningful way in their lifetime. Wow, wow. I think that's kind of interesting, yeah,
Ian
the gradient of acceptance, yeah, interesting. But also that tracks for a lot of things. I feel
Stoney
like a couple of the things that were kind of universal in this was the loss of human identity. Yeah, are we redefining what it means to be human, and if you replace 60% of your body or brain, are you still you inequality and accessibility, right? Will only the wealthy afford it, and would this create a genetic upper class or super intelligent elite? Oh,
Jason
it will, I can tell you, Will. I don't think that's really far fetched. That's not really I mean, you can just look at how the world works now, and the rich and the powerful are going to have access to things that the poor and the middle class probably are not going to have. 64% of
Stoney
Americans worry that human enhancement will widen the gap between rich and poor. Yeah. No, it
Jason
we will. Because look, rich people are going to always look for ways to extend their life and look for ways to stay around a lot longer tech overreach
Stoney
and surveillance. Who owns your brain data from an implant? Could governments or corporation corporations manipulate enhanced individuals 100% and then religious and moral questions are, is life extension ethical? And are we disrupting the natural cycle of life, death and rebirth? The soul was once as eternal. Now the hard drive is
Jason
man. I mean, that's what I'm saying. We've, I mean, look at, I mean, we've talked about it. Look at the statistics right now of people that are basically rejecting, you know, religion, rejecting the idea of, you know, spirituality, that you know atheism or not. System, if I don't, if we have an increasing percentage of people that are, in essence, you know, view death as the end, then of course they're going to sit there and try to do their best to try to extend our current life. I mean, that's just the way it is. And unfortunately, that doesn't surprise me, with our population basically rejecting traditional forms of Christianity, and really, for all that matter, for really any interest in the supernatural, so to speak, or the supernatural is something that they create, that we create. We create our own reality, so to speak. Yeah, and you run across those people. I mean, there are some people that are a bit concerned. I did. There are some people that are have, have kind of raised up the warning flag on this. There was an article, a journal article called foreign policy in 2004 and an American political theorist, Francis Fukuyama, called transhumanism the world's most dangerous idea, warning that bio technologies offering might come at a frightful moral cause. And I could see that, especially for human rights. Yeah, you know kind of you know the opening, the opening, you know, what happens with people who refuse to upgrade? What becomes of them? You know? And look, Imma tell you if, if, if, if parents start basically enhancing their children, and those children go out and get the best jobs and make the most money and become the most successful, and that success turns into real, tangible things, then guess what's going to happen? Other parents are going to want to do it also, because they're going to want to give their children just as much chance as anybody else. And I can see where that's going. That's that's that's going to take you down a road that you don't realize. Gonna
Stoney
have the ultra elite who have all the best facilities to do it, but then you're going to have this underground railroad system of, you know, fallen doctors and and scientists and engineers who are trying to do it to help the lesser people. Sort of,
Jason
sort of, what was that? Another movie, kind of, you know, there's several movies I've kind of touched on this. Was it oblivion? What's the one with Matt Damon? Was that oblivion?
Ian
No, that was a Matt Damon, sorry, Oblivion was Tom Cruise. Tom Cruise.
Jason
What's the other one with Matt Damon, you know, the rich one, the lazy, yeah, touches on that a little bit where he, you know, he upgraded himself. He had a chip in his brain, you know, did different things to him and stuff like that. So, yeah. I mean, we are, our culture is, I think there, you know, I'm a believer that the culture tells you where you're at, what's going on in the minds of people, and if this is coming out, this is becoming more mainstream, then, yeah, I think the I think the population is there. I just think the numbers are there to do what they have to do to enhance the human condition. I don't think they're worried about the human cause. I don't think people are thinking about that, because, as I've said, once people see people, other people benefiting from it, and it becomes more integrated into the mainstream kind of consciousness of people, people going to do it. It's like people now I want to send my kid to that college, because they sending their kid to that college, you know, and I want to give my kid all the chances that they get and stuff like that. So I mean all that just going to be that, that inherent human desire rooted in love. Yeah, it's rooted in love because I want my child to succeed and not be struggling in life. I think it's, it's going to open a lot of doors that we're not thinking of right now. Really, I really do, because I'm a firm believer that I think people going to do it. I just do because as soon as it becomes easy,
Ian
yeah, oh yeah, no.
Jason
Well, will there be groups of people that that reject and yes, they will. Oh, yeah, it's sort of like people. It's like people who don't believe in vaccines. Yeah, same thing. You know, it's just the idea that I don't, I don't believe vaccines matter. You know, the vast majority of the population what got vaccine, then there's a small percentage of who fought that right and refused to do it right, and they suffered whatever consequences. You know, got getting their children in school, whatever it is, yeah, whatever the case may the
Ian
same thing will probably happen here. Yep, I'll be purist. It'll be like, I'm not having any I'm not having any human Yeah, that's right. And then, of course, there'll probably be some sort of issues along the way that right could be fixed. But my
Jason
question. You know. Okay, then what are you going to do? What sort of jobs? Yeah, you know. How's that gonna work? Discrimination. Why would I hire you? Because I can hire this guy. He can outperform me 10 times. Yeah, he don't even have to sleep. Yeah?
Ian
Well, I What is it? What would the term be? Your you? You're, you're biologically discriminatory, yeah, exactly. But that's, that's only higher augments, thank you.
Jason
That's, that's the long that's, that's the inadvertent Right, right, world that you're creating by doing this, yeah, because it's gonna happen.
Ian
That's awesome. That's crazy. It's crazy to think about that because it's very true. And again, we've also discussed this as well. That again, the fact that we're having this conversation is the fact that probably the framework is kind of building out for this to be a thing. So in the next 20 years, what does this conversation look like? You know? So, because 20 years ago, it was a very different, different landscape than it is now. Oh, yeah, so
Jason
it's a future with a big question mark, yeah. What
Ian
an interesting discussion, right? Anything else you want to touch on or before we well, I
Stoney
wanted to, I had some statistics because I brought up the Bicentennial, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, have you seen that movie? Yeah,
Ian
it's been a long time, yeah. Okay, I need to watch it again. That was a great movie.
Stoney
It was good. But, you know, Andrew begins his life, so to speak, as an Android designed to serve over 200 years. He upgrades himself organ by organ, and all he had was a desire for mortality. He wanted to become human. So was Andrews, and this is a question for y'all. Since y'all have seen the movie, and I know Joe Jason seen it a little bit more recently. Maybe was Andrew's final act wasn't an upgrade, it was a sacrifice. What if being human isn't about perfection, but about limitations?
Jason
Yeah. I mean, as I said, What? What makes you human because the idea of just existing on, in on and on, you know, it's sort of like, while not, not, not transhuman in in scope here. But I mean, did you transhuman in reverse? Did y'all see the movie Tuck Everlasting. It was a cute movie. It basically, it's a family that discover a spring of water. They drink it. It makes them immortal. It basically freezes their aging where they're at. And of course, the story goes on with they meet this, this, you little girl. It's sometime in the late 1800s she developed a relationship with the family, and eventually they have a discussion. She goes, being human gives you meaning. He goes, we are like rocks. We never change. Wow. And you think about that for a moment, you become like rocks. You're frozen in time. So my question to you would be, what makes you human? And so I, I it, of course, there's always the fear of death, the unknown, um, and I think that we don't want to be rocks, oh, yeah, because the idea if you had unlimited years. Think about it. How that affects you psychologically? Yeah, that I will live 1000s of years. What motivation do you have to do anything?
Oh, and I think, I mean, that's what drives us for greatness.
This drives the human condition to create, to do things, because I want to leave a legacy behind. A
Ian
lot, right? A lot of fantasy media has talked about that. And, you know, vampires or other, like, immortal type beings of like, having like, there's a moment where they disconnect from other human beings because they're like, I'm gonna outlive them. Their lifespan is but just a drop in the bucket for me. And like, why should I get invested in there? Exactly Cummings and how
Jason
that? I mean, how do you navigate that? It's, you know, it's so funny that it's not funny, but it's, it was a great movie. Was the movie The Green Mile? Yeah. I remember at the end, Tom Hanks' character, yeah, the old The old man, he's sitting around telling the old lady at the end, you know, you know, I'm 108 years old, or whatever, whatever it was. And in he goes, I will watch you die. And, of course, the show progresses, and shows her she died, and he's going to her funeral, and he's now at the end, he's laying in bed, and he goes, if he can make a mouse, yeah, live so long. How much longer do I have? So this, this psychology of of immortality, the idea of living on and on, I wouldn't know what to do if I knew I was going to live for 5000 years, right? Think about that. I mean, you would literally. You would become an observer of human life. Yeah, you couldn't get close to anybody. You couldn't do anything, eventually your family would go away, and even people who remotely might know you, yeah, just you would become some freak. To
Ian
put things in perspective. If, like a generation of people, they like, comes and goes every 20 to 40 years or whatever, imagine how many of those generations like you would have in 5000 years, yeah, again, if a, if a human lifespan is like 80 ish years, how many human lifetimes that is? And it's just crazy that,
Jason
yeah, I mean, it's, I mean, of course, there's all kind of legends of people who were, you know, yeah, cursed, and they were cursed like the, you know, there was a the Wandering Jew, yeah, was one the Roman centurion, who, who, who stabbed Christ, right? Supposedly, they were the
Stoney
first vampire being Judas, that, or
Jason
Cain, even, really, before Judas became.
Stoney
They say they think, in the stories, Judas because of the blood.
Jason
Yeah, that was a watched day. I went to a movie to watch a show on call the Last Supper. Yeah, and it's, I thought they really did a really good job of playing off Peter and Judas in that movie. But if you get a chance to go check it out. But yeah, I just think the idea of, at what point then do you cease become human? Yeah, that you become more machine.
Stoney
Maybe that point is, is when you have no purpose. Yeah? Maybe the soul and purpose and having a soul gives us purpose, right? Maybe when you lose your sense of purpose, you no longer become human. Could be
Ian
that's a good point. Also think the beauty of humanity lies in the imperfection of it. Yes. And I think once you get to a certain point where you try and make things too perfect, that I think it loses that humanity. You know, it's kind
Stoney
of funny. You said that, if I may, I know everybody gets sick about me talking about Miranda and stuff, but the other day, I told her, I said, you know, we're not perfect, but we're perfectly together. Yeah,
Jason
that's right.
Ian
I agree.
Jason
We all have to make our we all have to make our niche in this world, and we have X amount of years to do it.
Ian
And I think that's it too. The beauty is that you don't have forever. Things come and go. Life happens, and that's part of the cycle. We all have the same human experience, Yeah, same emotions and feelings.
Jason
It would be, it would be, uh, that would be bizarre to be able to sit back and to watch humanity. I think it would come evolve over time and see what I do believe that lifespans will get longer. I think right now we got some issues, because I've seen some lifespans actually drop. But I think kind of, once we get beyond a certain point, I think you'll see lifespans get a lot longer. So yeah, I do believe that some things will come about with this. But I've said all along, I think the genies out of the bottle. I think it's coming. And I think this, you know, you know people were with, you know, this administration that came in, a lot of transhumanists that are pushing this. So I think it's here to stay. Yeah, well, that
Ian
was, what a great discussion. Yes, for anybody out there who wants to let us know your thoughts and feelings on this, we have a couple different ways you can do that. We have the email address get infinite together at, oh, sorry, get offended together. Let me enunciate better@gmail.com. We also have. Comment sections on a couple of different platforms you can reach out to us on as well, or the website,
Stoney
website, retrospect, podcast.com, right? But
Ian
anyways, until next week. Thank you so much for listening. Bye, bye.
Jason
Goodbye everyone. God bless.
Stoney
Every generation leaves a legacy. Ours might be the first to merge biology with circuitry to edit our very existence, but in our race toward the future, let's remember legacy isn't just about innovation. It's about intention. What future are we building and who are we building it for? Transhumanism raises big questions about life, death, ethics, faith and identity. And while we may not have all the answers today, the conversation must continue. So we leave you with this. The door to the future is open. Will you walk through it? Or will you hold it open for something even better? You're the best. Peace.