The Crisis Facing Christians in Nigeria | Retrospect Ep.210

In this week’s episode we discussed the ongoing violence affecting Christian communities in parts of Nigeria. We explore the roots of the conflict, the role of religious and ethnic tensions, and the impact on civilians caught in the crossfire. We aim to shed light on a humanitarian crisis that rarely makes international headlines.

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Transcript

Keywords
Christian persecution, Nigeria violence, faith survival, global community, Fulani herdsmen, jihadist insurgents, church destruction, Christian displacement, government complicity, religious war, kidnappings, Christian clergy, resource conflict, ethnic tension, religious freedom.
Jason  
I picture this. It is the still of night in some remote village in Nigeria's middle belt place where faith is woven into daily life, families asleep, churches quiet, children dreaming. Then violence erupts without warning, gunfire, machetes, terror. Homes are burned, worshipers, slain, villages laid to waste. Over the past years, this horrifying scenario has become all too familiar. Christian communities, pastors, elders, children have been killed. Their churches destroyed, their homes stolen. These aren't isolated incidents. They are part of a pattern, but underline much of this, believers say, as a simple yet chilling truth, faith, particularly the Christian faith, has become a defining mark, the reason for the persecution. So today we ask, how we get here, what forces have conspired to bring about such brutality. What are the stories of survival, of faith amid fear, of communities that refuse to be silenced? And crucially, what must be done by Nigerians, by the global community, by each of us if this wave of violence is to be stopped? This is not only a story of horror, it is also a story of courage, of witness, of lives that refused to be erased, because every life lost, there is a name in every village raised, a history in every burnt church, a call to conscience in the Gospel of Matthew, Christ warned his disciples, You will be hated by all because of my name For millions of Christians in Nigeria today, those words are not history, they are reality. Welcome

Ian  
to the retrospect podcast, a show where people come together from different walks of life and discuss a topic from their generation's perspective. My name is Ian, and as always, I'm joined by Stoney. Hello, Jason, hello everyone. How's it

Stoney   
going? It is going.

Jason  
It is going. Just trying to, you know, I said, you know, my life is still marching toward a marriage. And so just trying to get, you know, all that squared away and the weather, trying to get trying to get the honeymoon squared away, where we're trying to get that finalized. And so we've finally, I know this week coming up, we're going to be moving the last bit of stuff out of out of Tracy's house, so we're going to be busy. So that should be it. Hopefully she gets a gets an offer on her home. I know she's been, she's been really anguishing over that. I understand perfectly. I would be in the same boat. But so hopefully that that'll move, maybe the interest rates will drop, and there's enough

Stoney   
stress going on right now with that added, oh, burden and stress,

Jason  
yeah. I mean, she's just just been kind of crazy. But I mean, overall, life's been, you know, have a

Ian  
friend of mine who's in the process of trying to get married as well, and they were supposed to have their ceremony out in this, like, big park, but because of the government shutdown, like, they can't get anybody on the phone or to contact them, and all that kind of stuff, thing too. That's like been, it's a weird that

Jason  
government shutdown has just been, I mean, every day in the news now, you know, now saw something the Department of Education is fixing to get sacked. Oh no, a bunch of layoffs and furloughs probably, you know, but crazy times, it's crazy times.

Stoney   
I remember Obama got put into office, and 30 days later, without doing anything actually in his life he won the Nobel Prize. Yeah, and President Trump just helped usher in, for, actually, the second time, a peace deal in the Middle East and can't win the Nobel Prize. I'm kind of shocked at that. You would think for the last two years, all of the protest and massive, massive people screaming and hollering about, you know, peace in Gaza. Now that it's here, they're awful quiet right now, it leads me to believe that it wasn't about peace in Gaza. It was about killing the Jewish people and just to have a reason to scream and protest. Because right now, in all of these universities that they were rioting and protesting, they should be celebrating right now, should we not?

Jason  
Yeah, this kind of goes back to, you know, we've kind of touched on that. It's just, it just got, you know. The other side of the political aisle is not going to give President Trump any credit for anything. I mean, it's just, it's sad, because at one time our country, you could recognize something good that someone has done and actually give kudos to that person for doing that. Could cure cancer,

Stoney   
and the left would find it

Jason  
would because that's just where we're at political and I said, we've talked about, you know, about all that before, but it's just, it's just where we're at as a society right now. But speaking of Gaza and Israel and all that issue and the killings has been going on, there that perfect segue into what we're talking about today. This has not gotten a lot of play in the main media sources. It's, I think it's just now starting to kind of permeate a little bit more. I

Stoney   
think there's a specific reason for that, well, and that was murder of Charlie Kerc,

Jason  
yeah, I think this whole what's been going on in Africa,

Stoney   
right? Let me clarify, a Christian was killed on American soil for being Christian. And now

Jason  
to you, yeah, we've got a talk about, you know, you know, we talk about what's been going on in the Middle East, and, you know, and you hear the arguments on both sides. You know the Palestinians and the tragedies that are happening there. You know the Jews that everything that happened on October 7 and and all that, and the back and forth with all that, and, of course, that whole history of what's going on it right now, it somewhat pales in comparison to what's happening in Nigeria, the amount of bodies that are being stacked up right now. It's incredible. I never didn't realize it was as bad. I mean, I've seen, you know, it's kind of one of these things that you see an article pop up on some like secondary news source that you don't really kind of follow a lot and but it's not something you really pay attention to. But I'm beginning to see some, actually, some mainline podcasters talk about this. I believe it or not, I was surprised that this topic was actually discussed by Bill Maher on his on his real time HBO show, which is quite incredible considering Bill Maher as an atheist, and he doesn't really, you know, has really nothing much to say good about Christians or Christianity for that matter, but,

Stoney   
but then again, what if this were to open something up in his head and his heart and bring him closer to

Jason  
peace? There's no doubt, I you know, we're supposed to pray as Christians for all people, even though for people who reject what Christianity offers, but just the idea that this has now risen to where it's actually getting played on these very secular, you know sources

Stoney   
well, but right now, because of the Charlie Kirk killing, this is newsworthy. Okay, before, okay, in the first seven months of 2025 7000 plus Christians were killed in Nigeria. Just for the record, that's almost 34 a day on average. Yeah, being murdered, beheaded, not counting the over 7000 kidnappings, also of Christians. Oh yeah, it's, it's, it's absolutely and it's almost 8000 kidnappings in Nigeria, I

Jason  
think right now, from the sources I've I've read, and a lot of this is coming from a new an NGO out of out of Nigeria. I can't think of the name of right now. I'm fixing to find it in my notes here, but I'll find it in a minute. But it's a about 125 deaths since 2009 and 125,000

Stoney   
deaths? Yeah, yeah.

Jason  
And right now, the ratio is about 70% Christian, about 30% Muslim. So you know, to be fair, there are Muslims that are being killed too. But, and I don't know

Stoney   
how that who's killing it would be, will be the

Jason  
there is a Muslim sect that is has made it a point since about 2000 I

Stoney   
read that they're killing. And the, what's the word I want to use?

Jason  
I believe it's called their ballooning, the

Stoney   
not the liberal, but the, not the staunch Muslims, but

Jason  
probably Muslims that are actually exercising a little bit of, you know, kindness and actually living drinking with other people and and don't feel like they got to go out there and pull out a machete and chop people's heads.

Ian  
So I was gonna say, who is killing the Christians? Is it 

Stoney   
the it's the Muslims. 

Jason  
It's Muslims. And this is a primarily, a Muslim Christian deal. And, you know, Nigeria has about, I have to look at the numbers. They've their number of Christians are in the millions, but they literally want to wipe Christianity out in Africa. Unfortunately.

Stoney   
Remember, Africa was Christian before it was anything it was, that's where, who went down there, one of the apostles. Somebody went down there. This was, it was huge, the Ethiopian Bible, you know, it's Africa. Was cradle,

Jason  
the cop. I believe the Christians, if I if I remember right, and I'm kind of not 100% certain, but I'm pretty sure they're the Christians that are in Africa, or at least the ones that were in Egypt were Coptic Christians. And Coptic Christians kind of separated themselves from what I would call, you know, in essence, you know, a Catholic church for whatever it was called at that time. So we're looking at the two and three hundreds that they kind of separated, and they do have a bit of a different kind of bent in their in their teaching. But I believe the ones that are being killed in Ethiopia actually have mix of Catholic Methodist. It's a mix of different Christians that are being targeted. Interesting. So,

Stoney   
yeah, if you're not Muslim, they'll kill you.

Ian  
It's, it sounds like even if you are Muslim, but

Stoney   
they don't see if you're doing these other things. You don't see you as Muslim, right? Yeah, so the only Muslim is an extremist Muslim practicing to the letter, or you're an infidel, yeah?

Jason  
And I'm looking at a number here. It's at 18,000 churches and Christian schools burned. Over 5 million people displaced since 2009 since this thing started? I mean, it's crazy. It's just, it's, it's sad. Was

Ian  
there something that started in 2009 that kicked off this was,

Jason  
I think it's part of the political stuff. I think it's just part of the jihad oriented nature of I see of this particular sect of Muslims that are doing this. And I want to emphasize that, you know, not all Muslims subscribe, yes, unfortunately, though, there is a sizable percentage that do subscribe to this, especially in other parts of the world, because obviously it's happening, and you just can't ignore it, and kind of play tiddlywinks with this stuff, you got to call out what what it is. But, I mean, it's, it's terrible. I mean, it's absolutely terrible. I was, you know, of course, I follow some Catholic sources. And yeah, I was reading some some news sources regarding the slaughter of priests nuns. Yeah, matter of fact, it made news, I mean, to the number of Catholic priests, including scores of seminarians abducted in Nigeria in the past seven months, in in of 10 of of 2025 or from January 1 through August 10, has risen to at least 15, out of which at least five were killed. In other words, not less than 160 Catholic priests, including some seminarians, have been abducted in the past 10 years and at least 15 killed. So this is ongoing. Yeah, it's good to call the Fulani jihadist. Is who's who's pushing this. So according

Stoney   
to there's also a couple of groups. It's the Boku haram, and the is W, A, P, whatever that stands for, but it says jihadist insurgents. But remember, like in the Gulf War, when these areas were weak, the jihadists came in there and just started taking stuff and destroying. Drawing buildings and books and statues and everything, because that's what they believe, that, you know, those things don't promote their religion.

Ian  
And, you know, yeah, has the government said anything like their their well, the government, well, I mean,

Jason  
what they have their side of it. They basically say, but the problem is, the government is made up of some of these, these, these jihadists. And I see so you know how that goes. So

Stoney   
they're in that point where Muslims don't necessarily conquer. They go in there, and they infiltrate, yeah, and then they see, like the 80,000 Somalis brought into Dearborn Michigan, and they come in, they take a little bit. They come in, they take a little bit. They come in, they take a little bit. They out breed you seven to one. And then they always go on some type of a welfare system to disrupt your government, to disrupt the disrupt the funds that you have. And then as they start taking bits and pieces, and what the Nigerian government is is afraid of and waiting for is for them to turn on to that capital and go take the capital and just overthrow the government. They're not going to go fight the whole country in a war. They're just going to go take over that seat and then expand from there. And then, if you don't convert, kill you. If you don't convert, kill you.

Jason  
Yeah, basically the government is is, calls it ethnic tension or resource conflict and banditry. So they're basically saying, No, it's not genocide. It's, you know, there's just kind of playing it down.

Stoney   
Well, they don't want to call it genocide, because then other parties have to get involved.

Jason  
They say, behind closed doors, some officials quietly admit that while what the press releases, what the press do not they speak of underfunded security forces, political complicity and a fear, not of extremist but of acknowledging how deep the fracture runs. One former intelligence officer tells me off the record you want to know the truth. Everyone knows what's happening, but saying out loud would set this country on fire.

Ian  
Oh, yikes.

Jason  
And unfortunately, this is happening in these villages. And, you know, it's kind of like, it's kind of like happening out in the rural areas, and everything is fine in the city. So no one you know, is really talking about it that much. Yeah, they said, you know, back in, you know, some of these, I'm just kind of reading some of these stories, of some of these, these people, they've interviewed, and, I mean, it's just, it's incredible of the amount of faith these people have to be able to knowing they go to church. It could be that could be the end. I mean, literally, they don't know when people are just going to show up with machetes and start attacking them. I mean, that's just where it's at. I mean, and they keep coming back. I mean, it's, it's unbelievable. I mean, it's a testament of true faith of people willing to sacrifice at all. I tell people, I say that all the time. That's where, you know, the blood of the martyrs. That's what caused the faith to blow up the way it did when the Romans were persecuting the earliest Christians in those early centuries. And all I did was, it's like fertilizer. And I just, I think, when people see people willing to die, yeah, for their faith in a good way like this. I'm I'm doing nothing, but I'm worshiping God in church, and then all of a sudden, we get attacked by some nut jobs, yeah, that somehow feel like their God is telling them to wipe me out because I'm an infidel. I mean, it's just, it's just nuts. And I don't know, I don't know what can be done, but it just blows my mind that this story, the tragedy of this story, is what it is. The numbers are there. The tragedy is there, but yet it's just not talked about, but because it's not Gaza and Israel and stuff like that. It just kind of gets like, oh, well, who cares?

Stoney   
Well, but you see, we're looking at, you know, the first seven months of 2025 but it's not just that. 2022 was 5800 killed. 23 5600, 24, 4900, so, yeah, these numbers are stacking. Yeah.

Jason  
They say half the deaths occurred in the middle belt of the northern states, and they say Christians make up the majority of those victims.

Ian  
You're right. Though the I mean, you know, about standing up for what you really believe in, and all that kind of stuff is a different thing. I feel like, here in the West, and, you know, especially Christianity and all that kind of stuff. And I feel like we always hear stories about, you know, all things like this in a far off country, but like, it's different. They're like, I don't know. It's scary, yeah, two things. You could just go to church on a Sunday and then, of course, get, you know, killed.

Jason  
Yeah, the capital of Plateau State. It's a city that was once called the home of peace and tourism, and this is kind of the front line of where all this is happening. He goes. He's just talking about this person. He's pastor, Emmanuel dogo. He says a star, a soft spoken man in his 50s and wearing a faded white shirt and a cross car from local wood. He says church has been attacked three times the last time they burned the pews and left a message on the wall. It said you were warned,

Ian  
oh, dude. And and the the faith and the bravery to go back, that's the part that's that rocks my world, that makes me feel convicted.

Stoney   
Yeah, when you look back over time, this is not something new. In the first and third centuries, there were sporadic Roman persecutions, and the numbers are uncertain. In quotes from 303 to 313 there were about 4000 executed, with some scholars arguing up to 20,000 in medieval times, there is no way to know those numbers, so they kind of bounce over that and then go to 1915, to 23 with the Ottomans. And there were about 1.2 Armenian Christians killed with 250,000 Assyrians killed in the 30s. 106,000 Orthodox clergy were shot between 37 and 38 Wow with another broad faith based deaths, but those were unknown. But the clerk, they look they are signaling out the clergy to kind of hit it from somewhat of the top. In Spain 36 to 39 almost 7000 clergy and religious killed. Many lay Catholics were also murdered. That's just great. And in Mexico, think about this. This is right down the border. And 26 to 29 just mass repression and war deaths were 200 to 250,000 recognized, many Catholic mortars among the dead, 2000s today. Now we're looking at, you know,

Ian  
yeah, all over the world, some 1000. Yeah, yeah, at least in Nigeria

Stoney   
and the Christians are now being harassed in 160 to 166 countries across the world.

Jason  
Wow. Yeah. I mean, this is just, it's just terrible right now. What's going on with this? But this is, this is happening, and right now, they say Christians were 6.5 times more likely to be killed in violence. When counting for state populations, Christians were 5.1 times more likely to be victims of abduction. I Oh, man, for years we've heard calls for help being ignored as terrorists attack vulnerable communities. Now the data tells its own story. So according to the report, 81% of civilian killings were land based community attacks. About 42% of those killings were carried out by armed fallooni herdsmen, which the researchers said invaded small Christian farming settlements to kill, rape and abduct and burn homes. Oh, dude. Fuluni herdsmen who are SUNY? Okay, I was wondering what, what part they were, Shiite or SUNY killed at least 9153 Christian civilians, and at least 1473 Muslim civilians and community attacks, according to the data. Now this report I'm reading from 2024 so it's probably this is not the most accurate. So, um. I think that's other probably more than that. Now they say about 41% of the land based community attacks came from a variety of groups, which the report characterizes as other terrorist groups. However, the report states that the other category likely consists of different groups of Fulani bandits who are as much part of the fluni ethnic militia as the armed fuluni herdsmen man.

Ian  
It also makes me like, it makes me think there's a lot of like, there's a different kind of persecution I feel like, in the states towards Christianity. Like, no,

Stoney   
it's the attack on the family personally. And I'm just throwing that out there. I mean, and you may differ and disagree, but I would love that part of the discussion to happen, because I kind of have that in some notes to talk about.

Ian  
It's more so, like, what I mean by that is, like, there's a lot of persecution I feel like, towards Christianity in the states, like, about people that I think were raised Christians, and they're trying to, like, deconstruct their faith and go away from it. And like, Yes, I feel like there are some churches that are probably not the best and probably have poor leadership and whatnot, but it's crazy to see like, you know, I don't know anything about these churches or these groups that are here, that are that are we're talking about, but if they are truly just like peaceful people that are going to church and trying to worship God in their own way and and practice Christianity, they're being killed for it. That's, yeah, I feel like to be hard for someone to speak out against

Jason  
that. Nina Shea, the director of Hudson Institute, Center for religious freedom, told CNA that the numbers killed and abducted are staggering, and the documentation is now irrefutable. Fulani militants are waging a religious war, a jihad against undefended Christian farming communities and large swaths of Nigeria, she argued, equally undeniable and shocking is the fact that the Nigerian government has idly watched and tolerated these relentless attacks over many years. The goal of the militants to eradicate the Christian presence by murder, forcible conversion to Islam, and driving them out of their homeland appears to be shared by the government and Abuja, the capital of Nigeria, or else it would take action, which, that's what I'm saying. I think they're probably complicit in it. Yeah, they say Nigeria was first included on the list in 2020 the final year of former President Donald Trump's administration. However, it was removed in 2021 during the first year of President Joe Biden's administration. The DOS report blamed the Nigerian violence on inter communal clashes and a competition for resources. But no, that surprised me, because they're, they're catering to the Muslim population. Is what it is. I hate to say it, but it's just the truth of the matter. I don't, I don't know what the fix is on that. I look I've said all along, we've been at war with that religion since the sixth century. The history, the historical backdrop of that religion. It's a religion of the sword. It has always been that way, since its very beginning. And I don't, I don't understand how you you can reason with that. I really, I really don't

Stoney   
Well, I think times are different. And we come back to the, you know, hard times create strong men. Strong men create easy times. Easy times create weak men. Weak men create hard times. I'll put it to you like this. In 1785 the Maria and the dolphin, the crews of 21 men were enslaved by the Barbary pilots. 21 people was enough for Jefferson to send the Marines to completely obliterate them. And I mean families, dogs, cats, goats, everything, and then you don't hear from them for another 170 years. 21 people, not 7000 Christians, not anything going on. So you kind of got to wonder what's going on. But one an interesting statistic that I found, religion accounted for a point zero, 7% of the mainstream coverage in 2011 and that number is very specific. Work, which is down from 2.0% in 2010 and the reason that number is so small, I mean so insignificant, is because after 2011 it was so small, they quit counting it. Think about that. And so you wonder why all of this is getting covered sporadically, and it's only getting covered since now it's getting clicks. Now it's newsworthy because somebody had to get murdered on American soil, and now it's okay to talk about spirituality and religion again, because it's getting clicks. It's people are watching. What's the old expression? They're selling newspapers now.

Ian  
But I hear what you're saying, but I think it's also like I think that I think people are waking up now, sure, I think that even people that were, I don't want to say sympathetic, but people that align themselves more with, I think the left. I think ever since that happened, I think even those people have gone more to the middle or more toward the right. Well, we've talked

Stoney   
about for a while, so pendulum swinging right? Would that be kind of what you're saying to that pendulum

Ian  
potentially, but what I'm, what I'm here, you're, I don't think it's all, how do you word this? I don't think that everyone's talking about religion and Christianity and all that kind of stuff, because it's getting clicks like, yes, that's that's true. And I think it's focusing on that. And obviously I think news outlets and people like that focus on what, of course, people are talking about but it's more so the fact that I think people are actually interested in going to church again. People are interested in what like, what the real, like foundations of Christianity, is about.

Stoney   
No, no, see, I agree with that. People are talking about it. Why is the mainstream media covering it now? Well, because people are clicking.

Ian  
Of course, yeah. But at the same time, I do think that there are people that genuinely, I think are, are shifting. I think there is a shift.

Stoney   
No, I agree with that. People, I'm talking about the media, right, yeah.

Ian  
But media is also people too. There are some and there are some media groups, I think that are changing. I could be wrong, though, but anyways,

Jason  
well, right now and they, according to this, this, this inter society wrote, that's where a lot of this data is coming from. From this NGO in Nigeria is called intra society, but they basically the goal is to eliminate the 100 and 13 million Christians by 2075 that's that's the long term. So, yeah. I mean, this is a, this is a terrible situation right now.

Stoney   
Well, this is also part of the UN 2030, agenda of ending. The family ending, you're being able to raise your own kids. The Christian American family is one of the strongest forces in the world, and will always be,

Jason  
as our further investigation clearly showed that the abduction of hundreds of Christian clerics and killing or disappearance of scores of their colleagues, especially those working for the Catholic Church in eastern Nigeria, escalated after mid 2015 and 15, and brought about by a combination of Islamic jihadist attacks and attacks by criminal entities driven by violent transactional quest or interest, including targeting exotic cars belonging to victim Catholic priests for sale through their criminal syndicates, or forcing guardians, associated and relatives of victim clerics to pay huge ransoms running into 10s of millions of Naria or 10s of 1000s of dollars per abducted cleric. So there's a, you know, there's a transactional element to some of this. But, yeah, I've kind of followed a lot on the on the Catholic side, because I'm always interested in kind of following some of that news. And I've been reading about, you know, another priest that was his head got chopped off, but by somebody, you know, packing, you know, yeah, some of this stuff is actually quite graphic. I was reading a story of a of a survivor of what happened and that killed his his parents and and basically machete him on the neck. Luckily, he survived, gosh, that's and left him just out in the middle of the, you know, little these villages and stuff, but it's just just terrible stories of what these people are doing and and some of this is just, you got the authorities that are complicit in this. And, you know, I, you know, look after. Africa doesn't generate much international news, right? It just doesn't. Yeah, but even though there's a there's a lot of resources in that country. I'm surprised that it's not more because there's a lot of oil, lot of oil in Africa, lot of lot of other things there that, yeah, you would think that would draw interest, but as of right now, none of that is a

Ian  
it's probably not the main worry. It's probably, I feel like if, if Africa was a priority, I feel like we'd be hearing about it, but I don't think it

Jason  
is. Yeah, they say right now, the United Nations population estimates for Nigeria is around 238 point 5,000,002

Stoney   
thirds as big as America.

Jason  
Yeah, Nigeria is home to about one 13 million Christians, like I said before, including 32 million indigenous Christians and 8 million non Indigenous Christians in the north, and 70 million Christians, including 68 million indigenous and 2 million pastoral or non Indigenous Christians in the south. So there's all there, you know, I said Christianity is very much well established there, and it's been there for a long time. And goes back to the, yeah, the early times of Christianity. I mean, it's, it's, some would say they were Christian before. Much of Europe Christian before, you know, some parts of Africa you know, I would say the area bordering the Mediterranean, especially Egypt, and probably areas of where Libya is still Africa, yeah, you know. So all of that is, you know, those were some of the first because, I mean, that was very much part of the Roman world, oh, yeah, at that time. And so had been very easy for those, you know, early,

Stoney   
when they started persecuting them, they scattered. And guess what? South was part of the way they went. Yeah,

Jason  
so yeah, it's, it's a, yeah, this is a, it's just, it's as a, this is a tragedy. And I don't, I don't know, you know, our our given this, this topic, it's due regard. That's for one reason I brought it up. I think it's something important that we get out there, that the more awareness is brought up, that, you know, maybe there's eventually, there's some pressure on, yeah, getting in there and trying to, at least try to rectify this problem or

Stoney   
but then also, maybe not even rectifying their problem, but safeguarding America from the same thing happening. And I'm telling okay, because when you can happen here, well, it's happening. The Obama administration brought in 80,000 Somalis and dumped What 40 something, 48,000 of them in Dearborn Michigan.

Jason  
And these people are not they're not Christian, small Christian Muslims.

Stoney   
That was intentional. That is how ilar Oman married. Her brother came into this country illegally, and they elected her into office. So that's happening here. That is part of the standard of what they do. They come in and they just start taking little bits and little bits. So this is a wake up call for America, because, like we just said, they're two thirds the size of America. So obviously it can happen now. Obviously America also is a little bit different on the inside, with a stronger government, but a government that has its sights on a whole bunch of other stuff, other than protecting its citizens right now. So I asked artificial intelligence to look back over history at when a Muslim movement happens into a country that is predominantly Christian or another religion. How long does it take for these type things to happen? Less than two years. Less than two years. And you saw this happening like with the war in not Afghanistan. What was the other war? Iraq? Iraq? How long did it take for the you know, the insurgents, to come in and start destroying buildings and statues and killing and raping people and beheading people and doesn't take long at all, and America is on that verge. Well,

Jason  
you know, some people would say, with four years of basically an open border, that there are enough of those types of people now in the United States that the. Some sort of organized action could begin. I mean, you think about some rural area that is kind of off the map a little bit. I mean, think you get an organized group of these people that choose to, you know, now, of course, you have the potential these other people being armed. But, you know, there's a lot of areas that, you know, people are not armed. I mean, it's they would be at the mercy of of a well armed group, yeah, with the intent of doing a lot of damage,

Stoney   
I wrote a short story years ago, thinking about this, they believe there is over 40 million illegal immigrants in America. What if 1% of them were planted here for that? What is 1% of 40,004,000 that's half of our army size, because most of our guys are elsewhere. Yeah, and I say guys loosely. Let me read our military personnel, our military ladies, I'm sorry that's not my heart. I think y'all know me. I can be a butt head sometimes, but that's not how I think our men and wonderful ladies of the military are outside this country. So how many are still here? Luckily, we have the Second Amendment. But what if it's just 1% what if it's 2% what if, like you just said, What if some of those people were sent here intentionally to pick up arms one day? I mean, it's coming. Well, I

Jason  
think there's some people that want that, Oh, I agree with you. I mean, I don't, but I think it's, it's, I mean, it's gonna come to a point where you're gonna have to defend yourself, you know, I mean, I be honest with you, I always, when I'm at church on Sunday, there's always a part of me always eyeing the door, because this is going to be the day where, oh yeah, something happens.

Stoney   
I was director of security of one of the largest churches in Louisiana for this very, not this very reason, but for a similar reason. I mean, it's coming, it's happening. And, you know, I was researching the show. I watched this video, and I had seen it a couple of weeks ago, and I watched it again. It was about a Muslim, Iman, who was a religious leader, and he said, in a Muslim country, the woke people will be dead. If you are gay, lesbian, transgender, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you'll be killed by sunset. But in America, we love the woke agenda. We support the woke agenda, we encourage the woke agenda, because when enough of that is going on, the only Savior for America is going to be Islam and when that country breaks is when we will step in. So when you have the Liberal Democrats causing government shutdowns intentionally, you What is it going to take to have that, that that shut down of our infrastructure? Because think about that. This is when they take action, the Iranian war, this war, that war, all they're waiting for is sitting there in place, waiting for something to happen. How many times do we hear the Russians and the Chinese and all these other countries are waiting to drop some EMPs on our power grids? How many times do we have attacks on our infrastructure that our wonderful men and women of the working part of the government right now are, you know, stopping Well, right now the government shut down. You know, I heard the saying the other day on on one of the news channels that Doge came in and fired a bunch of these scientists that they proved were just taking money from the government, not producing anything. But then also said, this is the first time in recorded history that there was no named storms that hit the continental United States in June, July, August, September, and we're halfway done with October. Wow. What does that mean? Think about that. That's kind of an outrageous statement.

Jason  
I don't think anything's outrageous anymore.

Stoney   
But now that the people aren't pushing the button in the weather channels, the computers controlling the weather, we're just waiting for one thing to happen. Happen for somebody to attack this country, and it's coming, and the Christians have to stay strong. This country was founded.

Ian  
What I'm just nothing. Go ahead. Fire back at me. I don't believe anybody's control in the weather. That's the one thing. It

Stoney   
was kind of facetious, but it's kind of right, funny. But look at it, it is, quote,

Ian  
unquote funny when you look at it, because I've all heard the same thing. They're saying, it's the Jews. The Jews control the weather. Did you control everything? So that's what they say. But of course, and that's, I do believe that to a certain extent, but the weather, no, I don't,

Jason  
they say right here, according to a special report about truth Nigeria, dated September 4, 2025 titled inside, if I'm now, when I pronounce some of these, these terms, I don't really I'm doing my best. Regina, Nigeria's forest of Christian hostages. No fewer than 850 Christian hostages are languishing inside Regina forest near the Nigerian army base located in Kashia County, southern part of Kaduna state. In our special report of August 10, 2025 Kaduna state was listed as one of the states with the highest number of kidnapped Christians since December 24 January, 25 to August, 10 of 2025 with not less than 800 cases. However, emerging statistics have indicated the state has now recorded the largest number of kidnapped Christians in Nigeria in the past 10 months, with no fewer than 1100 cases, out of which about 20 have been monetarily freed, including eight freed in February and scores killed in jihadist captivity. And then here you got Christian children abducted in the east and converted to Islam in the north, several reports of systematic and coordinated abduction of Christian children of underage from Eastern orphanage homes and their forceful enrollment for conversion to Islam at Islamic centers run by several northern state governments, including kebi and Kano, have continued to trend in the media, especially social media. A recent case was a four year old. I can't make out the name, and I apologize, of nursery two at Catholic Church, one st Teresa's nursery and primary school, Nina farm area of news, gooseby and a bunch of other names. He was abducted months ago and taken to far away, Kibbe state Islamic orphanage center and Brennan Kibbe for conversion to Islam. So this is going on too. So not only you have killing they're also abducting babies and bringing them to which

Stoney   
makes you think about the Manchurian Candidate. Where are some of those children going to go? Are they going to be put into government? Are they going to be put into this they're doing it for a reason.

Ian  
I have a pretty big question, but I'm waiting fire away. Are we ready?

Jason  
Yeah, I'm just right now these reports are very there's a lot of detail to them, so I'm trying to kind of piece through and yeah, and pull up some of this stuff that I think is, you know, relevant to the conversation. So it's but, I mean, it's just incredible. Of some of this

Ian  
stuff, we haven't had a proper crusade. And over

Stoney   
500 I was thinking the same thing, here's what Hold on. I was gonna come out. I was waiting for him to know. I was gonna say, you can say what you want about medieval times. But if some of these kings would have found out that some Christians were being held, there would have been a crusade. How many was there? Like two or three real crusades. They count on them as one. There's

Jason  
like, there's like, 12 or 14, the top, the first, yeah, there's like, the first four, the one most.

Ian  
I was thinking, I think the last one, give me the last one, I think was in 15 seven, because I was thinking the same thing. So it's been over 500 years, and I know that obviously there are time for a crusade in our own country. Well, well, no, no. What I was gonna say was, yes, that is a great that is a way, hopefully. I was hoping the conversation goes in that direction, maybe a less official. I know a lot of times the Pope is supposed to call on a and I know that that's gone out of favor. Wait, wait, wait, hold on. Give me a second. Give me a second. Damn it. I know that in in in history's past, the Pope has to be the one to call on a crusade and and I know that that fell out of favor when the Church no longer was like, you know, militarized, and, you know, was more diplomatic, and some you know, all that stuff. Yeah, my question was, the big question I was gonna ask was, is, what do you think would have to happen for the Pope to call another crusade like a

Jason  
well, I mean, let's, let's, you know this pope, since I'm a history guy, I've read a lot about the Crusades. What led to the Crusades, why they happen to begin with? You have to really go back to the time of when Islam emerged out of Arabia and they started conquering areas that were all once Christian lands, which, you know, our faith really, most of our holy places. You know, all the relics were all in the east part of what we've called the Byzantine Empire, yeah, which would have been the Eastern Roman Empire. Eventually, these, these, this, you know, started basically imposing, you know, things on Christians trying to go, because at that time, pilgrimages were still very much a part of the religious fabric of a of a Christian's life. You, you try, you pilgrim to a holy site, and it would give you graces. The Church would call those indulgences to you would go and it's, it's kind of ways of of earning merit, so to speak. And of course, yeah, not really that, but that's kind of the best way I can kind of describe at the moment. So time goes by, eventually these become very hostile. So eventually Christians start forming groups to go and kind of protect these pilgrimages, right? And unfortunately, if you read anything about Islam, Islam almost really conquered Europe. Yeah, it was a Charles mortel, if I'm not mistaken, stopped the Islamic invasion, because otherwise it had already gone into Spain. It was starting to go into France, and it was a big battle, and we were able to repulse and eventually it all eventually started falling back. We reclaimed Spain. That's the Reconquista that you hear about, but the pope basically needed a way to, in essence, unify Christendom. You know, the church has always looked at from its very beginning of this term, that's kind of out of favor now, but it was called christendome. It was this idea that we, all of them were bound by their common kind of historical lineage. Of they were Christians. Yeah, they derived their religion from from Jesus Christ and what grew out of that. So even though, when Rome collapsed in the west and these independent kingdoms kind of started to take the place they were still united in this idea that we're still in essence, kind of like Romans. Yeah, we really are, because that's our our spiritual legacy. We come from that. So eventually the what happens is, what starts happening typically, then all these Christian kings started fighting with each other, right? Of course, okay, so the Pope is probably pulling his hair out, going, Why are you killing each other? I need to find some way of trying to mobilize the these Christian kings to something to unify. Yeah. So he makes an appeal. So, okay, that was Pope Urban, and that was not urban. Was innocent, probably the one of the strongest popes ever, I believe was innocent, the third, or it may have been innocent. The first, I'm not sure if it's somewhere in the 1100s Yeah, that he makes a plea for if, if Christian warriors would go, it would actually be a remission for their sins. Okay, so they but what happens is, I mean, we say, Now, why can't the pope call for a crusade? The fact of the matter is, the pope doesn't have an army. He had to rely on these medieval kings, well, to be able to mobilize armies to go and do this. So because he was,

Stoney   
I've got to interject there, he was also greedy. And when the Crusaders are, let's just say the true knights of Christ, the Templars, became richer than the King of France. The King of France passed a law that says you cannot be richer than the King of France. So he called his buddy, the Pope, on his phone and said, Hey, I need you to excommunicate these guys. Yes, and then tried to assassinate over 1000 of them on the first Friday the 13th. But they missed, they missed the Templar treasure, but it was the Templars that were the original guards of the pilgrims. And what they did was they invented banking. They invented checks. They actually invented the first banking fees because the Templars didn't travel with you on your caravan. You went to a temple Commandery in France or Spain or wherever you were, and they wrote out a check in code. And you took your wares, whatever you had, and you were going to put, you were going to hide this check, and then you took that check to the Commandery that was at the bottom of the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem, and they read it, deciphered the code, and for a fee, gave you your money so you could buy and sell your stuff. Well, they killed the Pope's army because he got greedy, just like the king of France did, and they were going to split the treasures of the Templars, and that's when he lost his army, because now nobody would fight for him or any other Pope because they don't trust him, because if I do the wrong thing, you're going to excommunicate me and assassinate me. So that's how he lost his army, well,

Jason  
but at the time, though, I'm talking about before, long before we get to where that occurred, when innocent first called,

Ian  
I think, for a crusade. It was Pope Urban. The second, it called for the it was our okay, it was urban. The second Pope Innocent. The second, I think, came after him,

Stoney   
okay. Well, he was asking, Why doesn't he have an army? Well, I was letting you know why any Pope doesn't have but at

Jason  
the time, though, when he called the for the army, he he had to appeal to these kings to answer the call for Christ, to go and re and to go and protect these pilgrims and to kind of reclaim some of these lands. That's where you get into the Crusader States and the Crusader kingdoms that were set up during that time,

Stoney   
but also as the remission of sins, the king was not going to send his favorite soldiers. What he did was, was he took some of the most Hardy, ruthless, criminal type people, knighted them, sent them. And that's why it was said that one Templar Knight equaled 20 to 30 Muslim warriors. Yeah,

Jason  
because they were,

Stoney   
they were, they were sending the nice guys. They sent the monster. They were the Special Forces of the original they

Jason  
was of the day. But, but you ask now, why? What happened? So, I mean, as time goes on, you know, we're talking over the span of a couple 100 years, a lot of things happen in 200 years, okay, I mean, just, it's just, that's just the way the world works. And unfortunately, you know, politics gets involved. And then, of course, then you've got the idea of of the, you know, of course, in the Protestant Reformation hits in the 1500s So, in essence, the pope today has really no one to appeal to, to mobilize on the scale at one time that it it once had. So there is no you know, Pope can say, hey, America sent an army. He Britain sent an army. Germany sent it. That just doesn't exist anymore. Because, let's be honest, most people are not even religious anymore, right? I mean, they're secularized. So there's the fervor of God motivating that I want to go defend, you know, people and the idea of pilgrimages. And then

Stoney   
there's also God and the king for God, and the king, that was the statement, you

Jason  
know, so that that kind of paradigm that at once existed just doesn't exist anymore. And so the pope doesn't really, I mean, he doesn't have an army, so, I mean, he could basically call for, you know, violence to cease. And, you know, I don't know what else he's supposed to do now, they they work through diplomatic channels, of course. I mean, that's just the way the world works now. But in the Vatican is very much involved still in negotiation with all parts of the world and various things. I'm sure they're involved in this Nigeria stuff and trying to but I mean, you know, once again, you're dealing with a religion that we have been at war with since it came out of Arabia. And that's what people don't really quite understand, is they believe they're still at war with us. You know, the Christian West has kind of moved on, and they're not even thinking like that anymore. But for them, it is because their commands are pretty straight up. It's like, you're an infidel and you need to die. And I'm not saying all Muslims will believe. Believe that. But you know, if you look at there's 1.8 billion Muslims, or whatever the number is, if only 5% yeah, subscribe to that belief and act upon it. That's a lot of people.

Stoney   
Actually, I heard a mom talking in another video that said a non radical Muslim is a Western term. Yeah, there's no such thing as a non radical Muslim period. If you're a Muslim, you're a radical. If you're a Muslim, you believe this, this, this, and this. Now you may have been westernized, right? But right then, that means

Jason  
you're an infidel, right? According to to Islam, you know, there's no non radical according to Islam, I mean, I mean the Islam, I don't know if it's Islam or Muslim. It basically means to submit, and that their, their understanding of God is not like a Christian's, and it's, it's a very fascinating subject of how Islam came about with Muhammad, and he's an interesting character too, if he actually even existed, but

Stoney   
I think he did exist. But what he had to do was, was because when he first started his movement, he was trying to do it in his own city, and a lot of people didn't believe him. He had no success there. So he started moving into Jerusalem land, into Jewish lands, and then he started getting a following with some of the hard lined people who saw some other things going on. So that's how he started moving out.

Jason  
Well, yeah, he got run out of town. Most Arabs, you know, for lack of better term, at that time, really, before, before Islam came about, generally, had were kind of, you know, had a different religious system of how they operated.

Stoney   
But then that's what he did, was Jewish beliefs, Christian beliefs. Jesus is a prophet this, you know, and he

Jason  
actually copied, I believe I've got a an actual book on on on that as part of my stuff I read, but it's some of his ideas of Christianity come from a Christian heresy that that was kind of prevalent in about the fifth and sixth century. If you read some of where he's get some of his things, it comes from that. And so that's probably where he got his ideas. Because the fact of the matter is, he went near these chieftains. Why they end up signing on with this stuff is because, basically Islam allowed him to allow them to do everything they were already doing before rape, pillage and kill. I mean, that was kind of built into how they now they got a license. So now they've got a religious license to basically say, well, now Allah blesses you for doing that. So, hey, yeah, Sign me up. Yeah, if I can still go out and have 15 wives and do what I want to do and kill my enemies, that's that's completely different than what the message of Christ was, right? You know, the message of Christ was, turn the other cheek and and help your neighbor and love your enemy, which is completely opposite of what Islam, right, you know, teaches. So it's, you wonder why it it grew the way it did when you basically make it so easy where, yeah, I can just do what I'm already doing and just be called me a Muslim.

Stoney   
Well, when you give somebody fear an enemy, look at Nazism. Look at all look, look what they're trying to do in America. They're giving you an enemy. They're giving you something to be scared of. That's how these things happen. Look at history. Yeah, somebody can point and say that's the reason for your troubles. Hate that. That's what you're going to believe. All he did was give them something to hate. That's what Hitler did. That's what Stalin did. That's what all these people do. They give you something to hate and then tell you how to fix it. Let's kill that group of people. If you kill that group of people, all your problems are going

Jason  
to go we've been dealing with this religion for a long, long time, and people have to look at it in that sense, and not look at it from a modern day lens, because we don't quite understand the mentality of what's going on right now in Nigeria? What's possessing these people to go out and just murder people? Yeah, but in their they're following the dictates of Muhammad. Plain and simple, you're not going to convert, you're not going to pay the tax, you're going to die, just what it is they. Mean, we don't, we, in our modern senses, we don't. We can't wrap our mind around that sort of mentality, but that is what it's always been for them. And at one time when we did go fight them, we felt that way. We were willing to take up the sword and go out there and do this, and you could sit here and debate the Crusades. For most historians, they ended up being a failure. It really we didn't. We didn't really accomplish it. The the last you know, all the Crusader States that were eventually set up were eventually lost, lost, and the only way that effort was ever going to succeed was the continued influx of Europeans that were willing to send knights and soldiers to go replenish that. Because, you know, they got plenty of Muslims out there. They had plenty of guys they can grab to go do that. Then, you know, things happen in Europe. I mean, what other big thing happens right before the Protestant Reformation plague, the Black Death, a third of Europe gets wiped out, which included much of the clergy at the time. And so it was just the kind of the cohesion that existed at the time of urban Yeah, was gone. And it just eventually it the Crusades eventually floundered. And it's interesting, if you read about, especially, read about the Fourth Crusade, and what happened? They went out and they said, Constantinople. Why that happened? You would sit there and go, gee, what the world's going on, you know, here, but yeah, I mean, it's like in the Pope is here screaming, going, why you are sacking a Christian city? You're meant to go fight, fight the Muslims. But that's just how things work because it was the idea of how soldiering worked, was, you go out and conquer you get the booty.

Stoney   
What's the saying? Follow the money. Yeah. Follow the money. Yeah. You had people say, We want peace in the Middle East. I'm sorry, even before Christ came, for 4000 years. They've been fighting in the Middle East amongst themselves over the merchant lanes. There's never really gonna be peace there. Yeah, it's okay, even before Christ came, they've been fighting for 2000 years over the merchant lanes, traveling here, traveling there. What do we call it the supply war, or the shoot the natural we've said it a couple of times, the oil trade and supply chain, not supply chain, but for water For this is where this agriculture is kicking my ass for the resource, resource war. Everything is about resources. Who's got this? Who's got that? You got the water, you got the dirt, you got this, who's got the resources? Then you got to get it from point A to point B, and somebody's going to take it from you while you're traveling with it.

Jason  
You know, as I'm saying, it's just, it is. I mean, it's just, it's how these series of of conflicts, you know, these attempts, as I said, it was really the first four of the biggies. I mean, if you remember the movie kingdom of heaven, yeah, Ridley Scott, which I very historically inaccurate. And unfortunately, I think he also falls victim to this anti Christian, you know, making the Muslims out to be these kind and civilized people, just as brutal and bloodthirsty as supposedly the Christians were, but that shows you a good I think that represented the period of the Second Crusade, because when the First Crusade, the First Crusade was very successful. It went in there, and they took care of business. By the time the Second Crusade, things started falling apart. Then, of course, in the third which the famous is King Richard the Lionheart, right? He goes in there and confronts Saladin. They kind of basically get to a standstill, and then they work some deal out, but he ends up getting kidnapped on his way back back home, and because there's forces back at home now season the throne, you know, kind of we get the Robin Hood stuff with, with King John. But, yeah, so, you know, they're just, you know, the politics of this. And you get to the Fourth Crusade you've got, you know, you got, you know, a king sets, get, you know, get an army together. They go, they get to the Venetians. The Venetians say, Hey, we're going to promise you we're. Gonna, you know, get booty from from these conquests. We'll pay you back for all these ships you build. Well, come to find out, that didn't work out. So what did they have to do? They got to go. They gotta go sack Constantinople. Yeah. So, I mean, it's just, you know, it's just, it's they were disaster. They just, they really were now, do I believe they were justified based upon what motivated them. Yes, absolutely they were needed. I think sometimes they get, they really get knocked too much. Yeah, because people forget why? Eventually the pope had enough of hearing stories of what people were experiencing it there. And then he was also getting people don't also realize he was also getting appeals from the Eastern Roman emperor or the Byzantine emperor to help, because they were dealing with these Muslim incursions more so than what the Latin West ever was was dealing with. So yeah, a lot of factors went into that. And then I just think

Ian  
it's fun. I guess I knew was gonna, I knew, I knew it was gonna round out the episode, probably with that kind of

Jason  
question, look, we could do an episode. I've got a lot of books on that, and I just one part of history, a lot about, you know? I mean, well, that's where you get the idea of the night and all that. That's kind of where all that, that kind of comes from, and but, yeah, I mean, it's just, you know, you have to maybe do a YouTube video. What if? What if the Crusades actually was successful? What would have happened? It'd been very interesting to see how if, somehow Christianity could have reclaimed all of those areas, right, that were once Christian. How that would have changed things? Right? Think about that. If they would have been able to drive Islam back, basically into Arabia and contain it there, and basically Egypt, all of North Africa, all of the Middle East will we consider would have remained Christian, how that evolution of those regions years later would be different, because they would probably be very westernized, and they would probably be very, I would think, probably better countries than they are now. But you know, I mean history, history happened the way it did. And yep, and here we are so well,

Ian  
for anybody out there who wants to put in their two cents or let us know what you think about this, you can well comment sections on Spotify and YouTube. You also have the email address get offended together@gmail.com, where you can send them more long form responses, because I'm sure as a lot of these heavier episodes, do they, I think, get people talking. We also have the website, retrospect, podcast.com and with all that being said Until next week, thank you so much for listening. Bye, bye, 

Jason  
goodbye everyone, and God bless 

Stoney   
we've seen the headlines. We've heard the silence, and if you felt the weight of it, the fear, the anger, the confusion, you're not alone. But let remind you of something history keeps proving. The church doesn't crumble under pressure. It refines under fire. Evil thrives when good people stay quiet, but God's people were never called to be silent. They were called to be steadfast. This is the time to stand, not in panic, not in hate, but in truth, prayer and unity. Every generation of believers has faced its trial. Ours just looks different. It's not lions in the Coliseum. It's apathy, distraction and moral compromise, but the same Spirit that carried the early church through persecution still carries us now. So hold your ground, strengthen your families, support your churches. Pray for courage, not comfort, because hope isn't found in governments or headlines. It's found in Christ, and he has not lost a single battle. Yet we're not victims of history. We are witnesses of his faithfulness. The darker the night, the brighter the light. Let's be that light. Together. You're the best peace.