Retrospect
Retrospect
Digital Apocalypse: How Players Faced The End | Retrospect Ep.216
In this week’s episode we discussed a fascinating digital experiment exploring how players confront the end of the world, not in real life, but inside the online universe of ArcheAge. As the game’s servers faced a scheduled shutdown, its community transformed the final days into a living laboratory: a place where grief, creativity, nostalgia, and chaos collided. We explore how players coped, connected, and created meaning in the face of a virtual apocalypse, and what their reactions reveal about how humans respond to endings, digital or otherwise.
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Keywords
video game study, end of the world, human behavior, cooperation, survival mechanisms, societal collapse, generational differences, climate change, immigration, masculinity, cultural dynamics, fourth turning, community, apocalypse, human nature
Jason
Today, we're talking about a video game not for its graphics, not for its mechanics, not even for its fandom, but for what it accidentally revealed about us. A recent study looked at how players behaved inside an online survival game when researchers fed them fake in game, news of an impending world ending event, no guidance, no instructions, just a digital equivalent of the end is coming. Good luck and what unfolded inside that virtual world is fascinating. Players had the freedom to do anything that could help others, hoard supplies, build shelters, start fights, form alliances or ignore the warning entirely. And in those chaotic hours, the game transformed into a kind of psychological petri dish, a place where 1000s of people unknowingly offered a preview of how humanity might respond if the unthinkable ever became real. So what does this digital experiment tell us about who we are? Are we more cooperative than we think or more selfish than we fear? And what happens when a virtual Apocalypse becomes a mirror held up to human nature? This episode is not just the story of a video game that accidentally showed us how we might face the end of the world that causes us all to reflect on the deeper question of not just what Would the world do, but what would you do?
Ian
welcome to the retrospect podcast by show where people come together from different walks of life and discuss a topic from their generation's perspective. My name is Ian, and as always, I'm joined by Stoney.
Stoney
hello
Ian
and Jason.
Jason
Hello everyone.
Ian
How's it going?
Jason
Well, Ian, okay,
Jason
I'm happy.
Ian
Oh yeah, you are.
Jason
You had a chocolate chip cookie waiting for us when we got here, and I just finished it, and it tastes so good. I'm glad. I'm glad you enjoyed it with a great cup of coffee.
Ian
I got prepared for this. We're heading into the holiday season, and I talked about dusting off my famous cookie recipe, and I know I mentioned it, and of course, obviously, seeing these two guys every week. I've talked about it the past couple weeks. And so a couple days ago, I finally did it. And it turned out I as there's like a halfway point throughout the recipe where, like, I can tell it's gonna be kind of, like in a in a good or bad direction. And I got to that point, I was like, Ooh, I think I still got it. It feels good. And it did. It turned out really good. And then, of course, I also bought some nice new coffee as well. So I'm, I'm getting ready. I'm getting ready for this season where I'm going to be making a bunch of coffee for people and and pastries and feasts galore. So, you know, well,
Jason
I appreciate it, because I was, you know, I know Stoney and I have been talking about these chocolate chip cookies, and
Ian
I'll definitely, I'll definitely, again, this was just the trial run to see if I still could do it. And of course, I promised, out of the whole batch, I, you know, I reserved, you know, a set amount for everyone, so one for each of you, and one for my mom and one for my boss. So, you know, I have my list.
Stoney
I have a question. How many did Maya get?
Ian
Do you really want to know?
Stoney
Because me and Jason got one. We've known you for four years. Yeah, you're right, and I've known you since you were this in your different Yes, you're right and but in her right?
Ian
Well, no, no, I wouldn't say that. I'm gonna, I'm gonna say it's a both and kind of thing. She's been around here multiple days out of this week, so I think she's probably had two or three. But that's not like a privilege thing. I sounds like, I mean, maybe, you know, I do
Jason
like her. You gotta take, you gotta take care of your lady. I get
Ian
that when more. So, you know, of course, whenever she looks you and says, like, can I have, can I have another one? Like, no. Like, yes, of course, you can have another one.
Jason
That's okay, she looks, if you were here, it looks at you with those eyes, yeah. You can put it in the microwave,
Ian
warm it up just a little bit, you know, and make it Yeah, exactly, you know, how it goes. We understand. And I'm saying, I said this about how it was my first go around, and I reserved them for each because, again, once the word got out, everyone's gonna be, you know, knocking down my door. But now I went ahead and I'm gonna try my hand at making it a second time now. And of course, I'll start like, reserving like batches for people.
Stoney
Okay, everybody. I have just hidden my cookie and my bag. Hey, Ian, can I have another cookie please?
Ian
I think those are the last two. I was reserved those for you. Gotta make some more. This was the last stop. The last I again, like I gave everyone else out, and I said there was two left, and I was, like, my Christmas time, I know. Well, I'm saying. For this batch, I was like, a shoe box. Okay, we'll work that out. Yeah, for this go around, I was like, Okay. And then the last stop throughout the next couple days, I was like, is Stoney and Jason. Those are the last two left. Everyone can glad we're thought you did. I did. I reserved them, had them in the bag and everything. And I was like, No, don't touch the ones in the bags. Those are the ones to reserve. So well,
Jason
I can't wait to meet her. We'd be nice, you know, who knows? Maybe she can come on to the show, yeah, give her perspective on on certain things when we have it, you know, when we have episodes that she might be interested in contributing.
Ian
We got a fun one today. Or I say, Yeah, interesting.
Jason
I came across this. This actually was another podcast I was listening to. They brought it up, and I saw an article that popped up on my news feed about a video game study.
Stoney
But we had talked, I had brought that up over the last couple of years about the one that they did with the gamers and the 747, so when you brought this up, yeah, and then I found out there was some other studies done too, like that, yeah.
Jason
So it's, it's, you know, it's fascinating. It's interesting. I mean, you know, it's, you know, how would you react if, if, all of a sudden, the the inevitable, you know, happened. I mean, you know, we kind of talk about it, and we kind of tongue in cheek it, you know, what would you do?
Ian
I've always kind of, I've made the I've made the comment a lot of times in our neck of the woods, you know, being in the Gulf, obviously, like, we have pretty crazy hurricanes and crazy storms and things like that. Is it? I I've said this throughout my years, and not my having gone through a handful of pretty gnarly hurricanes myself. I've said this numerous times, that I feel like natural disaster, or specifically hurricanes for us, like it really brings out the best and the worst in people. You really, you really start to see that whenever, like, whenever the status quo gets shaken up and things get turned over, like, sometimes the the worst of the people comes out and they, you know, they start looting, or they start hurting people, or, like, whatever happens. And, of course, there's this other side where, like, you have communities and churches and other groups that come together and, like, really help, like, rebuild a community, and it's just that stuff happens, like, on an everyday basis, but it's just when catastrophe strikes, you just notice this the two ends of the spectrum, I feel like becomes so much more Well, this
Stoney
was a little bit different, because, right, there was no saving grace at the end. Yes, everything was going to die. Everybody was going to die. Yeah, what do you do with the last few minutes you have in your life? It wasn't a, hey, we can build this back. Of course, full four people. We repopulate the earth. This was end of the world. Yeah? So that kind of changes, those little things, just a hair, right? But you're right about the big catastrophe stuff, but this one was these people were playing a game, and they were being fed information while playing that game of the end of the world, yeah? So what did they do? Right? The end of the world was happening, right?
Jason
So, yeah, looking at this, it's a lot of information on this. Actually, it was. The study was conducted by university at at Buffalo, lead team of computer scientists. They were going to put then, actually, of course, the article is in the past. So it's they presented at the International, World Wide Web Conference in Australia. I believe this study happened in 22,000 team was a 17, yep, but the name of the game was
Stoney
arc, age, okay. There were 81,174 players over 11 weeks from December the eighth, 2011 to February 20, 2012 and for the data people, there are 270 million records of behavior, of player behavior. Wow. During that time, things that people did said how they did it, why they did it, and it was interesting.
Jason
Yeah, that's crazy, but I think what some of the I think,
Stoney
I think it's interesting, like the analogy of, even if I knew the world would go to pieces tomorrow? Would I still plant my apple tree? That's interesting. I did it from a psycho analyst style, yeah, and I think that's kind of a big question I'd love for our leaders, our listeners. Sorry about that. Um, to write in and let us know if you knew the world was coming to an end, what would you do? Would you still plant your apple tree?
Jason
Yeah, that would be interesting. I think if people really gave that a serious thought, how would they spend their time? Yeah. And you know, of course, in in this study, which I think raised eyebrows was, you know, because the typical line is that, you know, you would descend into barbarism, and right people would go and loot. And there would be a lot of people that did that, and they did, and there was a small percentage, I think I'm looking at the of looking at some of the what they found, and it appeared that there was a small percentage of like murder in the game went up by right, but it was a small group. It did that the vast majority of people ended up banding together and trying to help each other out, which, you know, maybe gave some insight into people if they were confronted with the inevitable, you know, how would they like? Would people would just band together and try to comfort each other?
Stoney
Yeah, but a couple of things happen if you if you play games, there's a couple of facets that are very interesting in a game, leveling, skill building and questing, yeah. And when this happened, questing dropped sharply. People stopped doing quests. Leveling almost completely ended. Nobody cared about leveling anymore. And skill building, building plummeted. So what became important in the game? Yeah, and those are some of the things you know. So what would happen if that was a real life situation? College career, self improvement, saving money all go out the window, I guess, is if you could take that together from from what happened in the game, and people shift from building their life to living what's left. And they showed that in this study, in this game, that they did work on some things, messaging improved, right, right, working together improved, but some of those other things in the game just didn't.
Ian
I think that kind of goes back to your your question earlier is like, would you still plant the tree? I guess that's kind of the answer, right? There is probably know, the people working towards, you know, longevity type things is probably not gonna happen, you know. Or like you're saying these things are like, preparing yourself for the quote, end game, or the, you know, to get to the next best thing. It's like, that's not gonna matter anymore, because it gets all you're over.
Stoney
But one of the things, with all of the information that they had, the people that were already disengaged or planning to leave the game early, or the people who became more violent player, killing, griefing and sabotage, because they had got nothing to lose at that point, but the people who wanted to stay till the end became more social, cooperative and calm, wow. And I thought that was kind of interesting. The people that were quitting already just didn't care. No, they just didn't care. Yeah. And I think that's very interesting. You know, isolated people turn destructive and connected people cooperate. Isn't that kind of like human nature right now? Yes, yeah. Look, look at the amount of people who just isolate themselves, and just the destruction that they they create in isolation.
Ian
That's so true. It's crazy when you get to, like, see, like, read up on stuff like that or something that's so maybe not as power or not as life threatening as like a video game, but you're able to so easily correlate it with real life is interesting and also scary. I feel like, yes, a lot of ways,
Stoney
in a way, yeah. As the end approached, players sent, as I said, before they sent out more in game, mail, talked more in chat, formed more small groups and traded items more freely to help others complete bucket list tasks in the game, that's fun.
Jason
And I'm like, wow. Well, I mean, it gives me hope that I think that maybe we're more noble than what we give ourselves credit for. You know that we're not all just animals out to just, you know, look out for me, but
Ian
whatever, maybe, maybe hyper wealthy, super elite would be, yeah, that's all I'm saying. Well, they've already
Jason
got it all. They would do their best to, you know, try to, you know, preserve whatever Of course, they have, and of course, you know, you're always going to look at what kind of what does end of the world mean?
Stoney
Well, the deepest human survival mechanism is the tribe. Yep. It truly, really is. I mean, we want to work with people, knowing that there's bad people out there, right? But what would this? What could this bring to a real apocalypse? Families reunite, possibly former enemies reconcile, and groups form a little bit faster, and maybe at first, people actually act a little nicer to each other, and they got all of this from the study. And then you kind of have to connect it to real life and what's outside of that. Wow. You know, because without consequences, people become their true selves, true that's what. That's what. If you know that world is ending in 30 days, there are no consequence. What you gonna do? Put me in jail, right? You're gonna ban me, yeah, in 15 years, I'm gonna be on death row, and you're gonna execute me, yeah, yeah, no, right? You see what I'm saying. So there are no real consequences when you know, the only consequences is getting caught what you're doing and getting bit slapped in the next week, because there ain't gonna be no next week, so you only be flying for like, three days, maybe, right? But that's the real only consequence. So what do people do? How do you spend that? What was the movie? And here comes the brain damage again. What was the movie with the big wave coming. And the impact, I don't remember Deep Impact where the couple, the old couple, were just sitting there on the beach, and they stood there. That was deep impact looking at each other.
Jason
That was a daughter, and it was a father and her grown daughter. She was a news reporter.
Stoney
I thought there was another one where it was an old cup. There was an old couple that just stood there and waited for the wave to come and I will go. That would be Miranda
Jason
talking about. That would have been, well, the old couple, I'm trying to remember, because I know deep impact was a real good kind of that was a great movie. Great movie with showing the scale of a wave that would be generated with that kind of movie. I'm trying to think was, what was the other one? Was it Greenland? I don't, I don't, I don't remember an old I think, I think, I know, you know, that may have been that movie with Dwayne The Rock Johnson San Andreas. No, I don't think that was because that was dealing with a massive deal where giant tsunami swept into San Francisco. And I believe there was a scene with two older people that kind of got wiped out when the wave hit.
Ian
I see something about make way for tomorrow. I'm not sure. Or I just Googled a bunch of random words to, I don't know.
Jason
Well, you know, I think I think it's interesting that you know, of course, now 1012 Yeah, okay, okay,
Stoney
2012 2012 Yep. That was a good movie, too. That was a great movie, actually, because it showed you what we're capable of. Good and bad, yeah, yeah. People start, who's really behind it? That ultra 1% is going to be the people in the arcs.
Jason
Yeah, that's right, hell they always will. I mean, that's just the nature of the beast. I mean, it's, you know, we're, we're expendable cannon fodder. I mean, it's just, just how it is, yeah, you know. And if you were lucky enough to be in the 1% that that controls the vast majority of wealth on the planet, well, you know, you probably would be different too. You know, not to say that they're bad. I'm just saying, when you, when you have that amount of resources available to you, it's only natural to want to try to preserve what you can. As I said, once again, it would depend on the nature of what is the end of the world. I mean, if, of course, if the if the planet itself, is going to be completely, you know, blown to smithereens, and that's a whole different ball game. But if it, if it's something, you know, like a, you know, extinction level event asteroid struck the planet, and the planet would be fine. I mean, it would take a hit, and it would do global consequences. But you know, that might be different. I mean, we, all you know, read about, you know, how Oprah and all them were buying land in Hawaii or Jamaica or whatever the case may be, and well,
Stoney
they were buying it in Hawaii because they were going to build that 15 minute city. D in Maui, and that's because Hawaii is so far away from America and anywhere else, when the crap hits the fan, they wouldn't gonna have to deal with none of this, and they'd have their slaves there to do the work. And the 1% there would be living large.
Jason
Stoney, you mentioned about the apple tree was that the name of the study, for the the deal?
Stoney
No, that was just a question that came up on the psycho analysis. Part of it of what would you do if the end of the world was coming?
Jason
Because I'm looking here on some information, I pulled the paper, the actual study. It was called, I would not plant an apple tree if the world would be wiped.
Stoney
Wow. Okay, so everybody's thinking alike.
Jason
Then, yeah, it says it analyzed hundreds of means of behavioral records of players during an mm or PG beta test, which is what that whole thing was. So, yeah, wow, yeah. They said, you know, Dave suggests that, you know, people do Lean into social relationships. And I would believe that, yeah, I think people do. I think at the end, you're gonna gravitate to your families. You're the people you love the most, and and you're gonna, you know, what was that movie, which I think really kind of drives point home. Much you know of this point was knowing with Nicholas Cage, yeah, remember, you know, he was estranged from his father and his family and and at the very end, when the world is is fixing to get torched, where is he at? He he returns home to his family, right? You know? And that's a good movie. I may be one of those movies y'all can, okay, little, do a little called again, knowing. Okay, really good. It's kind of eerie, nice. I mean, it really is. I mean, it kind of little, little, kind of like, when I remember I first watched, it was like, Man, this movie is weird.
Ian
We just recently watched labyrinth. Oh, we did watch the classic David Bowie, yeah, yes, I remember that one. Maya really loves that movie. And she was like, if you're gonna watch for the podcast, I want to be there. I was like, okay, good. That was a wild movie.
Stoney
Talk about so she, she, she nominates a movie, and they watch it, and we've been nominating them.
Ian
She also joined us for the episode. So she was like,
Stoney
Oh, she even got an invite to join. We've never got an invite
Ian
to join. True. That's not true for the record, wow,
Stoney
man. Toss to the side.
Ian
Definitely not.
Jason
Well, you know how it goes. I
Stoney
carve out this time for you. Every week.
Stoney
You actually carve it out for our listener. I don't
Ian
That's okay, man, sorry.
Ian
I guess I'll make more time for you on the other podcast as well, if you guys want,
Jason
oh, yeah, I think that would be probably an interesting deal to do a I think there's some great doing we could do a, do a cross, you know, you know, to do a little deal where you we can do our take on a movie, yeah, that we all watch together, yeah, and do it.
Ian
So there's some great movies. I think that this podcast, and specifically these listeners here, I think would really appreciate that.
Jason
Yeah, everybody's different. I'm
Ian
trying to convince my friends to go see the new Frankenstein movie, the one by Guillermo del Toro, really, yeah, supposedly it's really good. I haven't heard anything. I haven't really heard anything about it, but it's, honestly what
Jason
I want to watch if they feel I don't have, is HBO Max as the new it, okay? Kevin kings, yeah, welcome to dairy. Yeah. I can do without Stephen King or the origin of penny wise, you know. So it's pretty good. So if you're all, if you're all into Stephen King stuff, and I've read a lot of you know, back in high school, read a lot of Stephen King stuff, you know, of course, you saw the shining of all that stuff. But it's interesting in this series, the character of Dick Halloran, yeah, is is. It shows his beginnings. Of course you would. Now you would recognize he would be the eventual chef at at the over was at the Overlook Hotel. Yeah, that would was shining. So it kind of shows where he started around dairy and it so it's all of Stephen King's universe are all connected, you know, between the Dark Tower and all that is kind of like spoken hub, so to speak.
Stoney
Well, you know, they say that, but they also say, and I saw this. I was reading an article that the matrix and crap the Terminator are. All different times, same story.
Ian
Wow, that's cool and scary to think about.
Stoney
So look, look that up whenever you get some chance. I don't know if somebody's stretching, but it's kind of an interesting thought process. When you kind of put those two together and how they work. It's all about the machines. It's all about this. It's all about that. What if the Terminator was just another matrix or something?
Jason
I think we're closer to Sky net then, oh, we absolutely are closer than people would like to
Stoney
think somebody had any balls and any gumption to really want to make $1 they should have named it Skynet instead of chat GPT. There's Hey, there's, think about that. It's kind of like the all these missed the thing on the nuts, the all these nuts, I think somebody missed that boat too. Kind of like, you know, the old, what was that old Russian car, the Hugo? Yeah, remember that? Yeah, they missed out. The Doritos beat them. Okay? They completely beat them because the Hugo needed the ad crunch all you want. Will make more. Yeah, that should have been for that car. So, you know, but it's like somebody could have had a lot of fun with that, missed opportunities. Yes, missed opportunities.
Ian
Speaking of, like, other shows and other things like that, I know that they're about to, I think, finish up, or I'm not sure they're finished or not with, like, the season two of Fallout that's coming up, talking about in the same wheelhouse Is this, like, all the same kind of stuff, like, talk about a game that does such a great
Stoney
job, I wonder if the game didn't use this study. Because you have the Raiders, yep, which are the violent people? Yeah, you have the settlers and a couple other people that kind of wanted to work together. I wonder if they didn't base that game off of that study.
Jason
I'll tell you what. I'm surprised. I'm sure they're
Ian
around for a long time, and I think, and I love the medium, because, like that game specifically, has done such a good job at the conversations of, like, how people act during catastrophe, and how, like, civilization can can thrive even after, maybe not like an actual end of the world, like quote, unquote scenario, but something you know, like an apocalyptic scenario like that. And how interesting things, how life can still persist on even through you know, even if it is, like, you know, fantastical and not you know, you know, accurate, it's, but it's still, I love the concept.
Jason
It's truly, I'm a bit in awe of how this game has had such an impact. Oh yeah, on the public, the public at large. I mean, it for something that's kind of niche, yeah, within a certain element of the population for it to to do what it did
Stoney
and develop a TV show, yeah? One of the things about it is there's very few really young people playing it. It's mostly older people I've met. There's a lady on there that's 77 years old. My goodness, I've met other people that are 60s, 70s, 50s, 40s. Very rarely have I heard one a little kid? Yeah, it's mostly older people 3035, and up that play that game because they're getting lost in something that they can kind of see happening. Now, I
Jason
saw some some information. They said people that actually do play video games stave off dementia. Yes. Oh, really, yeah. Believe it or not, there that's the reason you're seeing older people play video games, because it stimulates the brain and it
Stoney
drives Miranda crazy, but the psycho lady, the neuro psych lady, when we were talking about that, Jason, Jason, why don't you come play this game? And I says, I brought it to her. She said, that would be great. Learn a new game, learn something. As long as you're pushing your brain to do something, it'll stave off that dementia.
Jason
Yeah, yeah, it's, I've read that. I'm like, well, and
Stoney
these studies aren't new. Right, back in the 80s, they did a carrier landing flight simulator and then compared it to how they did performance on Atari combat flight games, yeah, okay. And they what, I mean, what they found out that folks that were good at gaming were also good at landing the simulator. Later studies and military research found similar effects. Gamers often make better drone operators and adopt faster to cockpit like tasks than non gamers. And then they did the one with the 747 and this was a. Little bit later than this. This was when what was it the Microsoft Flight Simulator. It was out for quite
Ian
a few years. I've played the most modern iteration of that. And I was having a conversation with someone who has had no experience in aviation myself, who's done like flight simulator training, but doesn't I don't think I'm really good at all. And then the instructor in question, we're all three talking over some lunch, just kind of, you know, chit chatting and pow wow and stuff. And I made a joke. I was like, I don't I've never been behind a physical plane before. I've never actually flown a plane. But I was like, but I definitely have a number of take offs and landings and a sesta in flight simulator. And of course, the my buddy who has no experience made a joke, like, you know, oh yeah, your flight simulator training, whatever. And the instructor stopped him, and he's like, No, I would trust him to be able to I would try to move forward and teaching him. Then someone like yourself who has no experience at all, right, no. And he was like, Oh, I actually didn't know.
Stoney
Well, one of the things that they found out, even like going from Prop planes to jets, was something called Task saturation. Yeah, and so these gamers who are watching all of this stuff go on at the same time are better acclimated to sitting down in that cockpit, seeing all of these buttons, all of these whistles, all of these bells, and being able to manage that in their head, where these, these pilots who were amazing in these prop planes, yeah, some of them, not all of them. It took them a minute or two to kind of get used to way more tasks at the same time, right? Because if you're flying a jet, it's a little bit in front of you. If you're flying a helicopter, it's a mile in front of you, or how whatever that ratio is, so you have to be able to not only see what's going on right in front of you, but what's happening proportionally in front of you too. And so they found out that these gamers, and that's why the military is hitting these young kids so hard in high school to come be these drone pilots. Yeah, that's going to be your next non manned aircraft pilots. That's who's going to be doing this. And that's, I think that's why all they saw this, and that's why all these studies come come out, because and look at these, these amazing drone pilots out there, not just the military people, but, you know, just around the country that are doing some of this amazing drone work. That's gaming. That's all it is. You're playing a game. Would have, would Oh, yeah, something kind of flying out there.
Ian
Yeah, that's crazy. It's fascinating. I definitely have, like, I think, if I'm not mistaken, the new, I'm not sure it's going to come out anytime soon, but I know, like the new version of like, like attack, like, fighter jets, whatever are gonna have, like, drone assistance, I agree with like they're gonna have dropping out the bottom opinion, yeah, so cool to think about that. How that would all pan out.
Stoney
No, I agree. I completely, completely agree with that.
Jason
Yeah, I had some stuff here that I wanted to while we kind of get, you know, the video game, but you know, this whole topic, how people react to news of end of the world, and I got some stuff here, just kind of a breakdown by generation. Um, they say Gen Z has higher existential concern, more likely to believe in or emotionally engage with Apocalypse level risk, especially climate or AI, more emotional distress, fear and outrage, possibly more climate anxiety, some fatalism, a significant share thinks personal behavior change may not matter, might be more likely to perceive the end as plausible and feel personally affected. Millennials also high, existential concerns, similar to Gen Z in many respects, emotional engagement is strong, worry plus guilt plus desire for action, mixed pessimism about individual impact, yeah. May respond with activism or lifestyle change, but also fear and anxiety. Gen X moderate concern about risk, perhaps more tempered than younger gens on existential risk, less likely to feel total fatalism, compared to younger gens, more likely to believe that action, personal or collective can matter, potentially more pragmatic reaction this is serious, but not necessarily inevitable or unmanageable. And then baby boomers, some end times, beliefs are present, but not drama. Dramatically more than younger generations per PRR, and I don't know what PR is, I guess that's a study PRRI, less likely to think personal behavior change is pointless. Risk concern, especially long term global risk may be lower or less emotionally salient. Reaction might lean more toward caution or dismissal, or a we've seen tough times before, mindset, which makes sense. I mean, they've been here the longest, they've experienced more tragedies, and they've been through tougher times. So it's like, okay, this is just another one we got to have to kind of get through
Stoney
so well right now this, these last few generations believe they have trauma because somebody told them no, yeah, okay. The Gen the Gen X, and the boomers and the great generation have had real stuff happen to them. Okay, being told no is not trauma. So I can't wait to see some of these young people in the end of the world. Thing, you got to wonder, they're the disconnected ones. Look, look, who's creating the violence right now? Oh, yeah, it's these young people who have not been told, No, who don't understand what real trauma is.
Jason
Well, you know what they said right now? I was reading up an article just regarding this kind of the on this, on this topic, but say the most dangerous person in the world right now are over educated, rich people, rich kids, who have been excluded from the upper ranks. Ooh, those are the ones that push for revolution. Yeah, it ain't the poor people. It really isn't, but it's people that are, by definition, should be in the upper crust.
Stoney
Well, they went there, but they're hold on the reason that there's a reason they want that, because they realize that the people that didn't let them participate are going to be the first ones to die, which will leave them as the pseudo educated people that are going to have to lead the tomorrow stuff. And that's why they want that. That's why they're pushing that, because they're they're the pseudo educated people, and they're not really the best educated, I can promise you right now, these Harvard and Yale educations are not what they used to be. It's full of indoctrination and full of delusion where somebody at the community college is getting a better education than somebody's elite colleges, because that's a delusion that they have again, we're into this weak man era of full of delusion, and that's why that is because they know their parents and grandparents that wouldn't let them participate, are going to be the first ones to go down, and they'll be the ones left running the companies, and they're managing the monies and etc, etc. You said
Ian
something interesting earlier about, like, younger people not getting told no. And I was scrolling through the internet a couple days ago. Was like, I watched this kid who couldn't have been more than, like, seven or eight just like, absolutely curse out his mom. And like, was I'm saying some like, like, profane stuff. I was like, there is no way in hell I would ever speak to my mother that way, not only because she probably beat me with an inch my wife, but also the fact. I was like, I've I had so much had, and have so much more respect for my mom that I would never do that my mom. Don't get me wrong, my mom has frustrated me, like, just like I feel like anybody else's mom has at the end of the day. So if a
Stoney
parent doesn't frustrate you, guess what? They're not doing their job, right? Hello, they're not your friend. They're your parent.
Ian
And I think my mom is my friend now, because because of that, yeah,
Stoney
absolutely agree with that, right? Absolutely.
Ian
And it was just crazy to think about that, where I was like, that's, that's gonna be a grown man one day who's gonna, like, grow up and like, he's gonna be, he's gonna treat other women, or women like that. And it's like, there's no way, anyways, just no
Stoney
great point, because you're right on right on money, right on the money.
Jason
Yeah, right now, it seemed like the biggest concern about kind of end of the world stuff is climate change,
Stoney
I'd say, yeah. And see, that's just bullshit. Well, that's bullshit.
Jason
They're I agree with you. It is, but I'm just saying that it's, obviously, it's present in LA, which makes sense, because for the last, what, 1015, so years, that's all you've been hearing. Okay, so that's what they've been hearing.
Stoney
You've been hearing it since the 60s. This is part of the indoctrination and the fear mongering that's going on. Okay, I had a list, and if I'd have known you, to go in that direction, I have it. I have a. List of all of the supposed climate change events that are going to happen over the last 50 years, the this rising, this falling, this, this, I and none of them have happened. Of course, not. None of them. It's all BS, okay. It's all bullshit. A way to get your money so they can put pump it through these NGOs and money launder it back to themselves. It's got nothing to do with the climate.
Jason
I get that. But I'm just saying, though, where it ranks in the mind of certain No, no, I agree with that. I agree with that's because that's all they've been, all they've heard for the last their entire time in school.
Stoney
The indoctrination I was just talking about that is the delusional not teaching these kids real stuff, but teaching them the indoctrination of what they need to believe to get them on their side, you know? And that like, like, socialism, I heard the absolute best definition of socialism the other day. Okay, here it is. I'm gonna throw this at you and tell me, if this doesn't sound like today in America, the best definition of socialism you take $500 from one person and give $100 each to one person. You've lost one vote and gained five until you run out of money, yep, and that's when you have revolt and riots. Yep. That's what socialism is today, and that's what these kids have been indoctrinated to believe, that that little, little $100 that they took from somebody else that that's worth your vote, and you get us in power, and we're going to take care of everything until you run out of somebody else's money. But climate change is one of those fears and tools that they use in their indoctrination of these young people on well, we need to push money that way. We need to push money this way. Well, we're poor. We can't do well. You just take it from the rich people. They got plenty. Just take it from the rich people. It'll be all right.
Jason
Well, that's what I'm saying. I just, you know, you know, I remember when I was young, the big thing in Stoney, you probably remember this quite well, probably not, but we'll go for that sure. Was, was acid rain, yes, oh, I remember, yes, acid rain. That was one on that list, acid rain. That's all you heard about on TV. Was acid rain. So, I mean, and all of a sudden I just disappeared off the radar, and then eventually got replaced by something. Look, I'm saying that there's always
Stoney
these agendas, the ozone, the whole no zone, yeah. I mean, are by now there should be no ice in Arctic or Antarctica, correct? All going to melt, right? And it was going to raise the seas 50 feet.
Jason
Well, it's unfortunately when, when education became a politic, became political. That's what's happened. And you know, just these universities, they get all this money, and they've got to do something with it, so they basically produce what they get paid.
Stoney
Well, they get they get paid just like the Rockefellers gave the American Medical Association money to push their pharmaceutical, petroleum drugs. They did that for the education system. If you want our money, you're going to push this. If you want our money, you're going to push that. And everybody follow suit because they want the money. You know, it's going to take somebody to say, we don't want the money. We want to do what's best for the people of America. That's just not going to happen. Not going to happen.
Ian
Maybe one day. But I think like we to circle back around towards the beginning of this conversation, I think it's gonna take some sort of external force that's gonna have to shift us in a direction where it shakes us out of that mentality.
Stoney
Well, I think it could be an external force that's moved into America, right with the immigration stuff, that's going to force some of those issues. I agree. There's, I It's an external force. It may already be here. Yeah,
Ian
there's a because it's coming. There's a big topic that I was, I haven't had a chance to talk to you guys about, but maybe in the future. And it was about a lot of this stuff with ice and everything like that, especially over like in North Carolina, there's like, a whole bunch of stuff that's been going on, as far as, like, like, like, the city's empty now because of, like, a lot of people not either going to work or going to school, because they're all, you know, potentially illegal immigrants and things like that. And it's
Stoney
just a crazy situation. They shouldn't be here in the first place. But there's
Ian
a certain group of people that are like, Oh, look at how. Look at their you know, where, like, look at all. Look at the absence of all these people and, like, making it out to be like a Whoa, whoa, this situation. And there's another side of the aisle that's being like, What do you mean? Yeah, look at all these people that are taking jobs from us and all that that
Stoney
shouldn't be here in the first.
Jason
Place, yeah, absolutely, yeah. I often wonder, I mean, kind of talking about our topic tonight, the how would you considering the political dynamics right now that are going on in the United States regarding illegal immigration and all the issues of trying to address that, and everything the Trump administration is doing right now. And it's provoking this. It's provoking that lawsuits being filed, and every news media is putting out there about their word, about the church not being full or whatever, to not you know, I often wonder if, okay, if the end of the world with any of that matter. News of the end of the world, okay, there's a giant asteroid. It's gonna be striking the striking the Earth. Would it matter? Would would immigration even even rise to the occasion at that point? It probably wouldn't.
Stoney
It probably wouldn't. But that doesn't mean we have to be stupid until that Oh, I agree, totally. Okay, so even asking that question, we need to clarify, yeah, it probably won't matter. But okay, right?
Jason
That's, that's, that's, we still need to be smart the end of the world. I think the point, what I'm trying to make it basically, I think, taps back into what the study showed was, even with all the issues going on with that, if that scenario made it manifested itself. Guess what you're going to people looks like a probably going to band together? Sure? Yeah, that's just how it you know, that's just human nature and how that works. And then when we kind of get to a more stable environment, then, you know, we got rules and we got laws and we got how society gets structured and we organize ourselves, but
Stoney
yeah, but that change, that changes the people that want to suck off the system are going to get left behind or shot by their own group, because if you can't do anything, we're not going to feed you. If you can't do something to help the group out, you're just a meal that somebody else that needs it could have. So that whole society of, you know, handouts and people not doing something, because my feelings are hurt today, that's not going to work in that situation. And those people are going to get left behind, because those groups are going to work, and you're going to have to bring something to the table. And then it becomes the immigration thing into the small groups. If you want in this group, you have to prove to us that you can benefit us somehow. Yeah. So it becomes micro immigration then, yeah, well, there'll still be immigration problems. It just won't be nationwide. It'll be little bitty group wide, yeah,
Ian
once, like you said about the whole like tribe situation, right? Tribes are, I feel like, by I don't actually know the proper definition of it, but I feel like it's small, intimate communities of people, you know, like, that's like, that is what that's like, a tribe is in my mind. Of like you said, instead of being nationwide, it's like, I got to protect my my close people, my friends, family, my tribe, those, those with an arm's arm's length. I mean, if you're gonna try and come in here, like we gotta, yeah, there's a process.
Stoney
Yeah, I agree. So things will still be there. They will just be on a different scale.
Jason
Yeah, did y'all did? This is something I saw. Well, my computer is acting weird right now,
Ian
isn't it always? Great when it's right, when you
Jason
you know, there has been people that have predicted the end of the world, yeah,
Stoney
about 1000 times, believe it
Jason
or not, there was, there was a model developed by MIT called World Three, and it's based on five factors, population increase, agricultural production, resource depletion, industrial output and pollution. And guess who sponsored the study? The Club of Rome okay 1968 and they published a book called limits to growth in 1973 this is where a lot of your people, like the people like with Bill Gates and stuff like that. But yeah, so actually, believe it or not, they did, and they said that they came to us a similar conclusion that Sir Isaac Newton did in 1704 based on his calculations, he came to conclusion that societal collapse will occur in 2060 Okay, in 1973 the follow up, because they looked at Newton's his calculations, would he use? And he said that societal collapse would occur in 2040 with seeds of that collapse first being observed in the 2020s which we've
Stoney
said 2027 was the year
Jason
they utilize a model called utilize system dynamics, which is a method. Methodology, using mathematical modeling techniques to use to solve complex issues and problems.
Ian
And so, when do they say societal collapse?
Jason
So basically, a complete undoing of this could of the current social order, really. That made when I saw that. Looking at that, I was actually I picked that up listening to a when I was doing research for this, this topic, I listened to a podcast on it was on computer predicts the end of the world. Yeah, and they talk about this 1973 model that Newton's says 2060 MIT said 2040 with basically, you start to see it in the 2020s and I'm gonna tell you, I see it. I don't, I just, I don't see how we get out of this the way it is now, I just don't, I mean, I hate being negative about that. I really do, because at the end of the day, we all have hope as Christians, that, you know, ultimately, things will be fine. I'm not saying that our current way we organize ourselves on this planet. Yeah, won't change, because that has changed throughout time. You know, I imagine if you talk to a a Roman citizen in 100 ad they would have never convinced them that the Roman Empire would eventually collapse. No, it's just not. It's just it's not there, yeah, I would venture to say the same is you talk to an American, probably, America collapse. No way. Would never happen. Just talk to somebody right after World War Two, yeah, how they would view, yeah, and what, what's transpired in right since that time? I mean, Somewhat, yeah.
Ian
So, like you said, someone after World War Two, like, oh, in about 100 years, this is
Jason
all gonna, it's all gonna come undone. And I just, I just, kind of, I really need to look more into that MIT study.
Ian
That's fascinating if that's the case. But I know that. I know that, like, this may be too optimistic or too I don't know in favor of the study, but like a 20 year gap is like a pretty big range of time. But when you think about it in context of like 1970 something, or 19 whatever it was, 7373 which was the study, and then 17, whatever, like, how far back that is like a 20 year window. It kind of feels small, right picture of things. Or it's like, well,
Jason
I mean, that's crazy. Just look at our look at our situation right now that we're facing. I mean, we are right now. This country is convulsing, and there is a strong move with, you know, we talked about it with the affordability issue. You've got now, a an avowed Democratic Socialist that first got elected into a major US city, crazy. You've got radical Muslims, you've got other socialists, you've got other people that are now, you know, looking at that going, You know what I'm because it taps into what. It taps into fear. It taps into that. I can't buy this. I can't buy that. I feel like my life has got no meaning.
Stoney
If you look in Dearborn Michigan right now, they have these imans Going to the Store saying you have a week to get rid of the alcohol, the gaming, all of this stuff that we don't agree with, or we're going to burn your store down. It's happening in America.
Jason
Well, I've been seeing, I've been seeing some of these people that are kind of busted up on these, like, Christmas tree displays, and they they purposely, basically start singing, or, you know, yeah, just the part of disrupting. And this is what happens when you you immigration without assimilation is is a recipe for disaster, because all it does is create a balkanization and there's no incentive for these people to adopt the values of their new homeland. Then why you here? Should have just stayed where you're at. But see that's, there's a bigger plan there, yeah? But that's what I'm saying. We we have, there is a fear, yeah, and it's very prevalent, especially in the younger generations right now, of the American Dream is just not. They don't see it, yeah,
Stoney
well, this is going to be the first generation since George Washington that does not do better than their parents.
Jason
Well, they can't, I guess. I guess the question then, fundamentally, we have to ask ourselves, what is better? And my question has always. In what does that mean? That it's better, I would venture to say things are not good. We may be better technologically. You know, we've, we've, we've done a good job of controlling sicknesses and health.
Stoney
Have we? We've created the sicknesses. We've created the health problems. So we're not anybody Well, eating poison and drinking poison every day.
Ian
I think it's also too like, the fact that, like I feel like throughout history, like I feel like, at least in my lifetime, it feels like every son has been able to make more money than their father in some way, you
Jason
know, well, but I would think as time goes on, that the law becomes, it's a kind of a diminishing return. Yeah, so, I mean, the fact of the matter is, what, as I'm saying, What? What really, what do you mean by better? If all it is is just more materialism. Yeah, that's not better. Exactly that. That's my argument is, what is better? I don't know. Maybe what we've done is basically operated. That's not sustainable, yeah. You know, houses are cost the way they cost, because we want bigger and bigger houses. Yeah, people don't want to live in houses that their grandparents lived in. They don't. I mean, you, we may say it, but the reality is, when you go search for a house, you're not looking for that. Yeah, you're just not. The vast majority of people aren't. Now, some people have to do it, just out of absolute necessity, yeah, but what they
Stoney
want it now, your grandparents house that wasn't their first home. They worked for that. They retired for that. They they worked very hard to get that second or third home that was their dream home. Kids today want it now, and they also want it with the brand new Escalade and the brand new BMW, and we're 1920 and 21 years old, okay? And we got to have the cathedral ceilings, we got to have the pool, we got to have all of this at 25 that's not how it works. My mom and dad's first home was not the palatial Mountain House that they had at the end of their marriage. Yeah, okay, they worked for that. They built for that. And but everybody wants it now, yeah, I got to have it now. I got to have the brand new iPhone. I got to have the brand new computer. I got to have all this brand new the brand new shoes, instead of working for it and building something with somebody
Ian
that's, that's the key right there, with somebody that's not, that's hard
Stoney
for a lot, it's not hard for me. I have somebody, how about you?
Ian
But what I'm saying is, there was a point in time in my life where I was like, I want to, I want to settle down and start a family, right? I would like to potentially one day own my own home and, like, the whether it be by myself or whatever relationship I was in in the past. I was like, that's not gonna happen, right? I was like, Okay, I don't, I don't mean I don't want to try and ostracize anyone in particular, but like, I know there's a large majority of the younger female populations. Like, I don't want to have any kids ever. I'm like, Okay, that's cool, but like, that's kind of a, kind of a big deal for me well.
Stoney
But also, think about this too. A lot of men don't want relationships right now because feminine has come in and said, you don't open the door, you know, don't pay for the meals. Men have been ostracized to where it's not even worth really getting serious in a relationship. Now they don't want to do it. So women are going, Oh, wait, wait, yeah, so we've used all of these fear tactics to create a societal situation that people really don't want to be together. They really don't want to work towards something. If I don't like you, I'ma cancel you, to where there's no fight left in people anymore.
Jason
Oh yeah. Well, I think, I think right now, with a fight coming, I think society right now wants, I mean, I hate to say it. I think just based on our our movies, you know, entertainment, I've always said the arts in movies indicate where a culture is. Oh, yeah, and right now, the culture wants effeminate men. They do. They do not want the alpha male that existed at one time. That's why you saw talks of toxic Max masculinity and all that kind of stuff society right now is once effeminate.
Stoney
Well, that's because we haven't had an enemy at the door. Well, okay, you want emasculate men until there's an enemy at the door, and then you want that. Alpha guy there? Well, that's not how it works. Toxic masculinity is not masculinity. Toxic masculinity is the absence of masculinity. Okay, a true masculine man is not an abuser. That's a weak man, that's a weak man who can't control himself. A masculine man is a provider, a caretaker, a spiritual man, a man who wants the best for his family and knows what to do to get it done. And so when you remove that masculinity, now you have weak, toxic men that you know. I think any man who has a beard and can't change a tire should be shaven and be required by law to shave every day, because that's bullshit. Okay, these men walking around, there's a there's a great picture, and I wish I'd have known, we'd have went this route with Cary Grant, with a three piece suit, in this gorgeous jacket, and right next to him is this man with the hair bun and these little shorts and these special shoes, and it's going what happened to men. They're side by side, and we're in that weak man era, this generation, everything we're going through in this country today is because of weak men.
Jason
Well, I mean, it is, but I think a lot of men, I think a lot of men have been somewhat burned, absolutely and because the system now, I think, has in attempt, and this is typically what happens in an attempt to correct the deficiencies that existed in the past, whether you want to call them deficiencies or not, where, you know, women couldn't vote, for all intents and purposes, the wife was almost the property of the husband. Okay? That dynamic eventually we got to a point where society kind of rejected that. Okay, so I would venture to say, Stoney, what you said, I would agree with but I'd be very curious, if you would talk to a man that lived 150 years ago, would he sound like that? I don't know. I really don't could you think about it? What? What was the social upheaval that occurred that changed forever how men and women interact?
Stoney
Just look at the Roman Empire. Same thing happened to them at one time. They're the mass producers of the world. They're, they're the greatest army in the world. And they conquered, and they conquered. And then all of a sudden they decided to start outsourcing everything. And then all of a sudden, the men got sweet, and we got very deviant, and we got all these special things. And then within 75 years, the Empire collapsed. The same thing, rampant deviance and blood sport? Well, two things that happen at the same time in any civilization, destroys the civilization. Okay, we obviously have with this transgender and the mental problems and things like that. We have the rampant deviance. We can see that what is our blood sport, look at our movies, and look at our games, and look at our TV shows and look at things like that. The first horror movie was the blob. Three people died opening night. You never saw the blob. What now do you have to do in a movie or TV show to get a reaction out of it? Anybody? We lay it all out. We're so desensitized. That's our blood sport. They had the coliseums. Every little bitty hick town in Rome had at least a little arena that some guys could shake some swords at each other. That was their blood sport. And then you've conquered so much. Everything gets sent to you that you need your food, your weapons are built by somebody else. You're not doing it yourself, so all you have to do left is to become deviant. And that's what's happening into America. This is the weak man error of our time.
Jason
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I but I think the culture, though, has that is what the culture wants. I'm not saying it is just as as men have. Are, are not I mean, look, I had a friend of mine that I knew and I had this conversation with and she basically said that we don't need men anymore.
Stoney
That's what I was saying earlier. They've convinced us that they don't need us to open doors and buy this and do that.
Ian
I wouldn't, I wouldn't even say convinced. In a world where they don't, they
Jason
don't, you have a sizeable portion of young women today that basically, you know you, they don't need you. I can go make sometimes, probably. More money than you, right? Colleges are graduating now more women.
Ian
And also, like I said, there's a large there's a large percentage that are like, I don't want to have kids ever. So at that point, it's like, there's no
Jason
so I get what you're saying, Stoney, and I think
Stoney
that's intentional, because there's one group in America that's out breeding the Christian sec, seven to one. So it's intentional. They've helped bring this into America, knowing that they could come in and out,
Jason
bring it and what is in about that culture, what is evident about it, what is evident about it,
Stoney
which culture, the one doing it? Yeah, they don't conquer they come from inside and destroy it from the inside,
Jason
social dynamics of that culture. What is it? Yeah, men control it. Yeah, yep. There is. As a woman, you have no rights, none, zilch. So the question is, if, if if you're up, they're still operating the way the world the West worked a couple centuries ago. Yeah, you know, before the idea of Western values, see, a lot of people forget that it's Christianity that actually gave dignity to women. Yeah, it sometimes it kind of shocks me, and freed the slaves. And all the all the things that we think of in a positive light started because of this ideal of Christianity at one time on this planet, didn't exist that way. And in many cultures, it doesn't exist culture
Stoney
we're speaking about still own slaves.
Jason
Yes, yeah, yeah. I mean,
Stoney
all of these people that are oh, we need really, yeah, wake up. Well, because our fourth turning is coming,
Jason
I think we Yeah, fourth turning.
Ian
I love how we're getting to this point. Like I just, if you would have asked me the top of this episode, if we were been getting to this point, I don't think I would have guessed it. I think it's, I was just laughing at that, how it's like, wake up.
Stoney
It is wake up. Because this is, this is the end of the world stuff we're talking about right now. This is, this is huge. Well, because if America goes down, the rest of the world's gonna tank.
Jason
Well, I think it's not a matter of, of of of it goes down. All we have to be is weak. You know, as I said, we have an unsustainable national debt. I think now it's at now 38 and a half trillion dollars. The last I saw. We're we have a crisis of purpose. I think there's internal fights in our country regarding what is the role of America. You know, we hold the reserve currency. You know, God forbid we ever lose that, because I'm telling you that's going to be we think we have it bad. Wait to that. If that ever happens, I don't think people really are ready for that. Yeah, I truly don't. You're all going to be living in cardboard shacks, yeah? When that happens, because this idea of the American Dream that goes out the window, I mean, it just we have enjoyed a level of living that most in the world does not have. Yeah, part of that is our result of what happened after World War Two, and the deals the United States made, of making the US dollar, the reserve currency. Yeah, that's just simply what it was. So we have benefited from basically the most of the world being destroyed between World War One and War Two. So, you know, we were the manufacturing power, and that which we are no longer that that. And that started to change in the 70s, in the 80s. So, but yeah, we have a lot of things, but as I said, it goes back to what we were talking about. If things really got bad, how people would react?
Stoney
Would you plant your apple tree?
Ian
And with that, I want to hear from you guys. What do you guys think do? How do you feel about this kind of thing? Do you think we need to wake up? Are we about to hit our fourth turning? Let us know if you have any suggestions for episodes as well. Curious to hear what, what you guys think we have the email address getting a pin it together where you can give us some more long form responses. Or we have comment sections on Spotify and on YouTube where you can give us those little quick responses, if you'd like, until next week. Thank you so much for listening. Bye, bye,
Jason
goodbye everyone, and God bless
Stoney
Tonight's conversation took us right to the edge of the world, but not to scare anybody. We went there to understand something deeper about who we really are, because as the data shows, the end of the world doesn't Magically turn people evil. It doesn't flip a switch and create chaos out of thin air. It simply strips away the noise, the expectations, the consequences, and reveals who we always were. Boomers, your instinct to rebuild order, to stabilize the ground beneath everyone's feet. Gen X, you survive off the grid and skepticism, the quiet realist, scanning the horizon to see what still works. Millennials, you immediately start to rebuilding community, forming little circles of hope and structure and Gen Z, you rewrite the rules entirely, breaking out of the old world like it was a locker room. As for the true danger, it's not a generational thing, it's the disconnected, the people who unplug from everyone and everything. These studies show those are the ones who become violent, not because the world ends, but because they were all ready to let go long before it did. So maybe the real lesson tonight isn't about the apocalypse at all. Maybe it's this, who would you choose to be today is exactly who you would be when everything falls away, the world doesn't forge your character, it reveals it. So stay connected. Stay grounded, build community. Love your people, because whether the world ends tomorrow or keeps spinning for 1000 more years, the future still belongs to the tribes who stand together, Boomers, Gen X, millennials and Gen Z. This was retrospect, and no matter what the world throws at us, we'll face it together. And please remember, no man ever steps into the same river twice, or it is not the same river and he is not the same man. Thanks for hanging out with us today. You're the best peace.